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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
 Posted - 22/08/2017 : 12:25:35
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Hi chaps
firstly this will be my first post so apologies for it being a bit long winded and secondly Hi to you all I'm hoping to pick the brains of you very knowledgeable chaps with regard to buying my first MMM I have owned a classic car before (1974 Ford Escort RS2000) very definitely not a Pre-war car but it did teach me one thing and that was.....to manage my expectations  the car will be used high days and holidays mostly for driving the country lanes of the beautiful Kent countryside where if you dare 40mph would be as fast as you would want to go.......so my question to you is......what is everyone's opinion on buying either a J2 or a PA that has had an engine change?.....most cars that I've looked at are or appear restored some newer restorations some older but in most cases the engine number stamped onto the raised plinth on the engine block have either had the plinth filed and numbers re-stamped filed and not replaced at all filed re-stamped where you can actually see the remains of a previous different number stamped or even an unfortunate gouge right through it rendering it illegible and so on.....and the selling prices vary between £32k and £40k (all of which seem excessive to me).....are these cars to be avoided?....my feeling is that a some of these cars are very nicely restored (not that I know or have even been to physically see yet) but just going on the high res photos I've had them send me of areas I have specifically asked for....I have based my short list on these photos as a fair few cars are based up ' T' North or at the very least will involve a round trip of 300 miles or more so I don't wish to waste my time, effort and expense on cars that aren't right for me....so any assistance you chaps can give will be greatly appreciated |
Edited by - Russ Jackson on 22/08/2017 12:27:30 |
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Nick Feakes
USA
3352 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2017 : 13:05:55
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Rus
Welcome to the forum and hopefully to the world of Triple-M motoring. When you say engine change, from your following remarks I assume you mean the car still has a correct engine if not the original one. Bear in mind these cars are 80 years old and most have done more than a few miles by now. I would guess that most of our cars do not have their original engine, in fact is was quite common for the factory to replace the entire engine within the early years of the car's life. Provided the engine has been well built and runs well I wouldn't turn down an otherwise good car on that point. I would however enlist the help of someone with good knowledge of these cars before parting with your money, lots of parts are available new but most are very expensive to produce and their price reflects that. Some parts are very hard to find so what might seem a small part could take a very long time to source.
It is well worth the effort to search for the car you want, subscribe to the "Cars for Sale" forum (see the FAQs to find out how to do this) and you will receive an email whenever a car is offered for sale.
Nick
Webmaster |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3672 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2017 : 13:26:44
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Russ
If you could contact me by e-mail (see Contacts section of this website) I will send you a guide to owning a Triple-M car that Philip Bayne-Powell wrote a few years back for thew Club's Safety Fast! magazine.
Dick Morbey
PA-PB0743
Frieth, Oxon, UK |
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2017 : 14:11:35
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| yeah I get it that the cars are very old and that engines may well have been changed...especially in the J2's with their wobbly 2 bearing cranks I just wondered whether an engine change had any bearing on price Etc. as I'm not clear in my own mind....if an engine change has no bearing on price...I'm wondering why anyone restoring a car would bother filing away an old engine number and try to re-stamp the original number on.....I see on the registry database that some cars have been listed with the original engine number and noted as original but also note that the current installed engine number has been recorded as well......I've studied quite a few cars especially dashboards and dashboard instruments dial makes types etc whether standard deluxe or customised so I have an inklining of knowledge although I realise that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing LOL.....also one of my other concerns is body alignment Etc especially on totally restored cars afterall the fit of the body Etc. is only as good as whoever carried out the work thanks Nick.....I'll email you Dick.....thanks all |
Edited by - Russ Jackson on 22/08/2017 14:18:12 |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2017 : 16:00:02
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Hello Russ, I am also new to MMMs, not my particular choice to buy the dismantled remains of two J2s, just that I was in the right place and at the right time when thirteen boxes of parts, two chassis, engines and some memorabilia became available ( in Cyprus ). There were difficulties getting the parts out of Cyprus, as we have Cypriot residency, two properties and Cypriot friends who know the ' ropes ' I managed to get the parts back to the UK. In the case of my two J2s, the engine on the earlier car is not the original engine, but a later cars, the original engine is in another car which still exists I am informed. The engine block of the second car is very seriously corroded and possibly beyond repair we will see. That's how it is.
CJD |
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Malcolm Eades
United Kingdom
379 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2017 : 16:28:36
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Russ,
I think the key is whether the vendor is passing off the engine as original when it is not. That is a not terribly legal way of bumping up its value. It seems that "matching numbers" cars attract a premium and, indeed, if a car is genuine, with lower mileage and original components it probably is a bit special. However, these cars are few and far between, so a car that claims this needs cast-iron evidence of its past. Perhaps I might borrow the word "provenance" from the art world. For provenance is what you are interested in. What history has the car got? Is there a documented chain of ownership stretching back a long way? Never mind the engine, has the chassis number been filed off or altered?? Is there photographic or documentary evidence of the rebuild and all that work the vendor says has been carried out? Who did it? A well known specialist or Joe's Back-Street Bodge Shop? Is the car a road-legal runner with evidence of regular servicing and MOTs? No doubt the article that Dick is sending will flag up the areas that are expensive to put right, so those are the ones to focus on once you are happy with the information you are being given.
Malcolm
M Type
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2017 : 18:05:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm Eades
Russ,
I think the key is whether the vendor is passing off the engine as original when it is not. That is a not terribly legal way of bumping up its value. It seems that "matching numbers" cars attract a premium and, indeed, if a car is genuine, with lower mileage and original components it probably is a bit special. However, these cars are few and far between, so a car that claims this needs cast-iron evidence of its past. Perhaps I might borrow the word "provenance" from the art world. For provenance is what you are interested in. What history has the car got? Is there a documented chain of ownership stretching back a long way? Never mind the engine, has the chassis number been filed off or altered?? Is there photographic or documentary evidence of the rebuild and all that work the vendor says has been carried out? Who did it? A well known specialist or Joe's Back-Street Bodge Shop? Is the car a road-legal runner with evidence of regular servicing and MOTs? No doubt the article that Dick is sending will flag up the areas that are expensive to put right, so those are the ones to focus on once you are happy with the information you are being given.
Malcolm
M Type
thanks Malcolm....I wouldn't say that the cars I've seen so far are being passed off as original matching numbers but I equate the price some of the cars that are being sold for as I would say top money (£36k up to £40k) so I'm expecting a top car i.e. at the very least matching Engine / Chassis numbers....maybe the prices aren't top dollar I don't really know but I do know of cars bought only last year which have risen £16k I mean that's some rise in value...maybe they have risen that much but like I said I would at least expect matching Engine / Chassis numbers hopefully you guys will put me right with my expectations and values but you're correct a fudged Chassis number is of major concern and something I will look into more.....most Vendors quote matching Chassis / Engine numbers because that's what is on the Brass Vehicle identification plaques but even I know that doesn't necessarily mean that's what's installed.....I'm hoping one of you knowledgeable guys can guide me through this minefield....it's a toughy |
Edited by - Russ Jackson on 22/08/2017 18:10:29 |
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Onno
Netherlands
1031 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2017 : 18:22:14
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If I where to have 30-40K burning a hole in my pocket I would not be so focused on matching numbers.
Though it is a nice to have it will do little for the driving pleasure.
My focus would be on an undisputed chassis number, provenance (who what where and how) well built mechanicals (what has been done by what standard) a body with curves in the right places,etc.
Make sure it is a nice car to drive that does not need 10k being poured in to it in the first years of ownership.
Onno "D" Könemann |
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Ian Bowers
United Kingdom
938 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2017 : 18:31:23
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When it comes to prices it is worth remembering that the general investment market is under pressure to find places to put funds which are 'safe' and the product relatively easy to sell. As a result quite a substantial level of funds has moved into the classic car market, and MMM MGs get caught in the backwash, so prices have moved upwards reflecting increased demand.
The other factor is that you can buy from a dealer in these cars who has a margin to make and provides some level of assurance as to the quality of the product, or an individual which may increase the risk and reduce the price. Overall there is an inherent range of prices for essentially the same car.
Taken together, the best insurance for spending wisely is to check the history and provenance of the car, by asking here about it for example, and take a MMM knowledgeable person with you when wheel kicking.
It took me over a year of research and learning to find mine, and I was 'lucky'.
Ian Bowers
OD 6791
J3 3772 |
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gerard van der veen
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2017 : 20:49:14
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Not really to repeat your former reactions, just to boost it a little, as I am also new to the MMM world and 'just' bought a project from the States, living in the UK, reading an advert on the Internet. It was rather 'brass' described, highly priced, more deterring than attracting most interested parties in old cars; that created my opportunity. You say, main aim is to tour country lanes... you can do it in about anything old... Your labor(-time/space), knowledge & finances are the only factors to consider & balance when buying, maintaining & enjoying any old banger, especially a pre-war one; you can even hire an old car. Is it an investment; the cooler & harder you have to weight the 3 factors, but when a particular car, for me the MG PA/PB, you have to be prepared for the worst and enjoy everyday the sun shines...
Choosing between only a frame + boxes (=part prices) and a (concourse/specialty) restored car is relative easy, of the latter there are about 5 to 10 MMM's every month for sale, world wide. However, anything in between, will be difficult to find and to judge; forget the romance of Youtube. I only checked authenticity and engineering cleanliness... was it 'bodged or cared for'.. If possible to see, or traces of filing, real numbers, you should be worried. To give you an indication, 'authenticity' will become the all overriding factor towards the future for all old vehicles, being it much more heavily scrutinized by each brand/club fraternity as well as by the Government (DVLA, HRMC). As we speak, I am very busy (from Febr 2017), nervous, to get my original UK registration despite that is is 100% clear, professionally authenticated and obvious; I am still in the dark. The whole reason being, for long, everybody accepted it, if you have 1 original table and 1 original chair, you could 'make & fake' the original dining set, worth many times the single parts... Bugatti has started its legal fight to protect its 'authenticity' corner, surely financially motivated, but soon other brands will (have to) follow. What is the fun, rally/race or compete against a fake car or paying & thinking it is the real car not to judge the pleasure of a print whilst realizing that the one and only genuine Leonardo hangs in the Louvre. Good luck in your hunt, keep the MMM informed and seek always expert advice, like this great forum having a large following & huge archive.
gerard van der veen |
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2017 : 06:51:08
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thanks all it's much appreciated....my next question then is.....who would be the man in the know to take on the odd tyre kicking mission when he's available and who lives in or around South East Kent as I'm in the dark.......I do have a short list of cars but I suspect either one or all will get pulled to pieces for one thing or another |
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Ian Bowers
United Kingdom
938 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2017 : 08:39:20
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Look under 'Locate Members' at the top right of this forum page. Search by area, and then look in the forum archives by their name as to how active and knowledgeable they appear, and which model interests them. Make contact through the Forum email system and see if they can help.
At the worst they can only say 'no', or hopefully 'yes'!
Ian Bowers
OD 6791
J3 3772 |
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kjrj
United Kingdom
136 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2017 : 10:22:08
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My thoughts, worth exactly what you paid for them...
First, if you're new to pre-war cars, check out a few MMM's at dealers and a few other makes too. It could save a great deal of money and heartache in the long run, and I'd expect the investment of time to be very well worth it. Drive some "known good" cars. Then you will have a basis against which to compare. Not everybody likes non-synchro gearboxes and cable brakes.
Second, don't be in a hurry. Without exception, the best cars I have owned have been the ones I bought when I wasn't actually looking for a car. All I had was half an idea in the back of my mind that one of those would be nice some day, and then just the right thing appeared. If you insist on buying a car within the next month, the vendor has an advantage over you. If you're happy to play the long game, it's the other way round.
Hope you enjoy the search and end up with a car that you really enjoy. Lastly, be wary of anybody who defends shabby business practices on the grounds that "this is a hobby".
Kevin Jones
Letchworth, Herts
NA0950 |
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etlanpa
United Kingdom
560 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2017 : 14:47:51
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Barry Walker has a nice original PA for sale....
There are also a couple on prewarcar.com
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Edited by - etlanpa on 23/08/2017 14:50:53 |
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2017 : 17:28:03
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| thanks all.....your advice is appreciated.....I'll let y'all know how everything pans out it maybe next week it maybe next year......i'm definitely not an impulse buyer but then having said that if something doesn't happen within a reasonable time frame I tend to go off the boil then all manner of excuses come into play as to why I should keep me dosh in me pocket....LOL.....or what else I could spend me dosh on.....whatever it is it will definitely be pre-war |
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Terry Hartley
United Kingdom
278 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2017 : 18:05:15
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There's a very nice looking PA for sale on this website. It sounds to have had a sensible rebuild inc new block, crank etc etc...
No connection, just looks interesting for the asking price.
Terry |
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