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 Connector rod or big end bolts
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gerard van der veen

United Kingdom
108 Posts

Posted - 13/07/2018 :  23:34:29  Show Profile
I did a search prior, but failed to find any info.
Engine; MG PB.

Has anybody experience with making their own connector rod/big end bolts; drawing & suggestions.
I am aware they are high tensile (but don't know the specifics). I can imagine they weren't sold on each corner shop as well as 'identification' was in its infancy in those days. On mine there are no numbers nor (any) stripes. The head is round, un-deep, flat on one side (to lock) and the nut is a split pin type. Unexpectedly, when loosening the nuts, no real torque tension, was felt..... is this common?
To improve 'imbalance' are these bolts (+nuts) weight calibrated/equalized; or is corrected during the final crank (+ connector + fly wheel) balancing act?

Thank you in advance.
Gerard.


gerard van der veen

LewPalmer

USA
2323 Posts

Posted - 14/07/2018 :  03:41:50  Show Profile
Gerard,

Why would you even consider making your own big end bolts??? One failure could be very expensive. These are readily available from multiple sources, not the least of which are our esteemed Triple-M parts dealers.

Lew Palmer
PA1169, PB0560
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gerard van der veen

United Kingdom
108 Posts

Posted - 14/07/2018 :  18:54:34  Show Profile
Hi Lew, you're right, if possible to outsource; I would do it; any trustworthy and responsive person/dealer? I did consider...
Not to mention, a well established MMM racer & parts supplier couldn't supply them after several weeks searching for them (nor answering my questions), my friend just finished his wonderful PA, has (simply & likely much better) replaced his crank for a Phoenix with modern rods (& modern bolts). Existing catalogues or parts-lists of our MMM cars are extremely old (i.e. this triple M forum, I already copied, have unworkable blurry pictures -way before digitization was invented-; yes they are authentic but useful?? > nobody in history found it important to improve these). I have asked 3 times at a local Natter if a person could bring his old parts list (with maybe better/useful pictures) in that I could copy them; forgot it every time. I know that quite a few of people just bring their engine/cars to a specialist(?) to have it restored; sorry I simply have not the means to do that and I like to practice 'craftsmanship'. If my home made parts sustain the power of my 911, I assume my PB would hold it too; or maybe I am wrong. Of the few (multiple?) esteemed MMM dealers, with beautiful though cryptic websites; not all parts that are mentioned are available, nor mentioned at all. Communication has proven to be 'tiredly' slow & offered 'workshop expertise' doesn't exist anymore. I am relative new to the MMM club, am a qualified engineer, but genuine engineering knowledge in the MMM world is very hard to find or offered. I was volunteer at the mega(?) MG Live; it was new to me & nice to see some people (only 11 cars on Saturday and 4(!!) on Sunday) Great (instant) coffee & cake, HOWEVER no MMM knowledge was shown, demonstrated, nor distributed, only 'authentic sales brochures' of MMM are reprinted, offered. Cicel Kimber (his legacy & followers!) was not ONCE mentioned in non of the Marquees or during the whole event. Yes a 'Lifestyle Tent' where they were selling candles and picture frames.... No MMM racers, no old/new MMM parts dealers... nowhere... Where are the thick knowledgeable copies, binders (& people) that help us to 'Laudes Augete Priores'.... even this text is 'uncertain' & bungle on to Thornley's motto. At the event, more knowledge was distributed on how much their respective MMM car(-s) were worth now, especially stipulating for what 'scrap price' they bought them in the past.... Hobby??
I realize we live in a 'buy it now' society, but I (still) like to to learn, try and sharpen my knowledge, despite I am relative old (for some grumpy). Sorry to say, but the diehard oldies & their expertise are fading away, especially if you realize how poor it is communicated to the next enthusiasts in line (like me, or younger). These days a lolly stick wouldn't suffice, parents now prefer to give them a fiver and to buy it themselves, continuing their beer drinking...
Yes,I am interested to know, but multiple & esteemed.... Who (with knowledge)?
PS: this is NOT personally meant, I apologize for the forthrightness, looking at '70s MG magazine, nearly at every corner you could ask for MG help.... that has to my frustration, disappeared.
Kind reg.
Gerard.


gerard van der veen
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LewPalmer

USA
2323 Posts

Posted - 14/07/2018 :  22:25:11  Show Profile
Gerard,

I am not a metallurgist, but even I know that a good con rod bolt should be of a hardened material with rolled (not cut) threads.
A quick glance at the Sports and Vintage catalog shows the big end bolts for a PB to be part number 1437X, My ancient (2014) price list them at GBP 6.15 each.

I too am somewhat of a craftsman and have made many many parts for my PA which I could have bought, but I took great pride in making - often from raw brass, a hacksaw and file, then had chromed. But I would have NEVER considered making the big end bolts. The cost of repairing a broken block far exceeds the relatively modest price of a few bolts that are so critical to the health of my engine.

Just my $0.02

Cheers

Lew Palmer
PA1169, PB0560
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Hornet

United Kingdom
265 Posts

Posted - 14/07/2018 :  23:17:07  Show Profile
various makers would sell assortment sets of big end bolts back when these cars were in daily use , ie Morris Austin mg Wolseley all in a metal tin . road hog were a popular maker.
I have made new big end bolts for alloy rods I used heat treated en24 , I tensile tested against the original bolts and the new ones were far stronger ,
the original bolts were cut threads 5/16 bsf ,new bolts also cut threads not rolled . I made some new bolts with UNF threads and found the threads in the nut failed before the cut threads on the bolts , the weakest link is the nut.
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Oz34

United Kingdom
1756 Posts

Posted - 15/07/2018 :  20:23:07  Show Profile
So Anne Robinson would send the nuts away then?
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gerard van der veen

United Kingdom
108 Posts

Posted - 15/07/2018 :  22:38:24  Show Profile
Hi Lew, Hornet (Oz34),
Thanks for your reply/response.

Being 'rational' here; buying is a better option; how much I like to fabricate every component, my ultimate goal is enjoying the car on the road within a reasonable space of time.
Had hoped that some 'vintage diehards' knew some good technical sources (books or compendium) for the MG PA/PB... showing more in depth restorations work... comparing the reading/replying to my listing; it's apparently not available here.

Just went to Newby Hall, great event; did manage to get my new braking linings to rivet but proper (english) bolts?; will go to beaulieu!?

Today's materials (not the B&Q stuff!) will perform high & reliable being cut (bolt/nut) overcoming all engine stresses. In the old days rolling/cutting was maybe an issue, but that is long past.

Kind regards,
Gerard.



gerard van der veen
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Colin Butchers

United Kingdom
1121 Posts

Posted - 16/07/2018 :  10:36:48  Show Profile
Gerard. I am feeling a bit hurt. I spent quite a long time talking to you at Silverstone, and I don't recall us discussing anything especially technical at all. I have been working on and driving Ps and Ns for sixty years, and I think I know where to go and who to ask regarding practically every problem, great or small, that you might experience with a PA. Off the top of my head I could probably name the best part of half a dozen people who could supply new big-end bolts for Ps and Ns, all of them tried, tested and trusted as being "fit for purpose". I go along with those contributors to this thread who advise you to forget any question of making them yourself. I think that the best piece of advice I can give you is to obtain a copy of Malcolm Green's book "M.G. Road Cars - Volume One Four Cylinder OHC Cars" which contains a very detailed work by Bob Jones which should answer everything you might want to know. Also the 2008 Yearbook has an article by Andrew Bradshaw which covers much of the same ground in a less technical manner.

To suggest that there is a lack of technical information available at the present time, whether written or spoken, is simply wrong. In fact the current problem is having to decide which piece of advice is worth taking, or which is better ignored.

Perhaps I might add that possibly you have bneen spending too much time in the sun without wearing a suitable sun hat.

Colin B.
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McEvoy

United Kingdom
213 Posts

Posted - 16/07/2018 :  19:20:56  Show Profile
Gerard I too like Colin feel somewhat surprised at most of your comments especially those concerning Silverstone. I also served most of the day in the Marquee and knowing many of my fellow attendees I can assure you that if you asked the right questions there were many there who would have given you the correct answer or at least pointed you in the right direction.

The Triple-M fraternity is awash with very good expertise, knowledge (both written and memories), history, supplies and friendship. I started my Triple-M life in the mid 1950s with an M Type progressing through various models exotic and otherwise finally selling up with the responsibilities of married life, family, business etc. in the 1970s. About 11 years ago a chance opportunity enabled me to rejoin the Triple-M and I can assure you that from day one the help in every shape and form that was provided to enable me to further my Triple-M project was almost overwhelming.


Nine years as Treasurer reinforced in me just what a wealth of knowledge and help is available and what progress had been made in the intervening 30+ years.


I agree that Silverstone is disappointing regarding the number of Triple-M cars but this is brought about mostly by the fact that the circuit used for racing now days, unlike earlier years is not the most suitable for our cars hence less interest and therefor less appropriate Suppliers/Dealers.

Colin's advice regarding Malcolm Green's book is spot on and a trawl through the index of Year Book articles provided by George Eagle which is on this site will answer many of your questions. I'm not sure what engineering discipline you majored in and from your original question I assume it was not mechanical engineering but you will find that the books and articles mention are written in very clear non technical prose that will enable you to make a first class PB engine.

Good luck and apart from Colin's suggestion try sun cream, the hat wont stay on for two minutes in a PB.


McEvoy
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coracle

United Kingdom
477 Posts

Posted - 17/07/2018 :  11:42:23  Show Profile
Re: "...the hat won't stay on for two minutes in a PB."

Then get a different hat; one with an open weave; see:





When pulled well down, this type stays on up to the legal limit.

Apparently Vincent Van Gogh had a similar problem keeping his hat on when out riding. His hat was a bit on the tight side so he took drastic action to make it pull down better; an oft misunderstood "fact."

Edited by - coracle on 17/07/2018 11:44:46
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Cooperman

United Kingdom
507 Posts

Posted - 17/07/2018 :  13:59:03  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by coracle

Re: "...the hat won't stay on for two minutes in a PB.".................Apparently Vincent Van Gogh had a similar problem keeping his hat on when out riding. His hat was a bit on the tight side so he took drastic action to make it pull down better; an oft misunderstood "fact."


He also had a problem with his sight, his glasses kept falling off!! think about it.

John Cooper M 628
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David R

United Kingdom
266 Posts

Posted - 17/07/2018 :  19:24:14  Show Profile
Gerard
As you know there is some limited MMM ownership and knowledge in the MG CC (Tyne-Tees)Centre,and I hope we have been able to give you some help and advice with the P Type. You are more than welcome to borrow any of the books and documents that I have,including the excellent Malcolm Green 4 cylinder book and MMM yearbooks going back to 1973 and early Barry Walker catalogues.From time to time one or other of us hosts a working lunch at which we all get together and as one is probably now overdue I will arrange,so that both you and Alan can meet those owners who you have not met.Hopefully my J2 will be back on the road very shortly and we have also recently made contact with a long-term NA owner in the area.Do not feel you are without advice and knowledge locally.

David

J 3355
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gerard van der veen

United Kingdom
108 Posts

Posted - 19/07/2018 :  13:07:37  Show Profile
Dear all (MMM),

My first question was a pure technical one and all further remarks were ‘thoughtfully’ non-personalised, neither intentionally made to upset people, nor to vent my frustration. More than needed, I admit and apologize, my expressed disappointed; it should have left out. As this post has become, to my surprise & regret, ‘a personal attack’ my final reply to inform my later respondents; there is one issue here, Information Exchange, but (to explain my disappointment) split in two; expertise on paper and ‘Laudes Augete Priores [LAP]’.

Expertise on Paper:
Nowhere did I mention that there is no knowledge within MG or MMM fraternity neither did I ask you, Colin, at MG Live a ‘direct’ technical question, nor a hint of a knowledge lack across a geographically North/South divide.

I merely stated that (after asking around before and @ MG Live), there is NO manual book on restoring a PA, in the likes of Haynes, Olyslager or even better ‘101 projects for your 911’ (W. Dempsey, Motorbooks). These books methodically describe in each chapter with clear exploded technical photos & dimensional views, all specific tools needed, specific torques + all essential factual info, workshop timings etc., etc., just go two steps deeper, than all my other/present reference MMM material, varying between chaotic, blurry, nice informative read to ok, but omitting completeness, subject depth & engineering accuracy; Blower (up to all T’s), Smith (Mg’s), Howell (J2), M. Green (pre-war MMM), MMM Original Parts list (complete invisible ‘item and/or unit’ useless list). At MG Live, our helpful librarian advised me Yearbook 2008 (not read yet). Having an official MG Car Ltd Archive; are there (digitized) single MG type info enquiry entries possible like a corporate archive?
It still puzzles me why my first forum question is being judged as ‘inferior’ technical? Having made (designed, tested & approved) ‘operating theatre equipment’ before, why wouldn’t I be ‘able’ to make these ‘simple’ bolts? Merely asking: .. Is there a ‘tech-file’ available for the PB big-end bolt?
Several times in my reply –before the ‘next lot’ reacted- I stated, sensibly I would buy them, only didn’t know yet where, after a few failed attempts. And, being accurate, if the ‘next lot’ observed last MG Safety Fast, MG Live article’s photo of the MMM marquee, you see me ‘wearing’ my –appropriate- sun protection!

As LAP is dear to me, this part troubled my ‘disappointment’ reply, should have been excluded, but positively meant, here a consideration for any future MMM events. After a genuine hospitable reception by Dick & David, I was JUST disappointed volunteering 3 precious days on the annual event to discover no ‘enjoyable’ MMM entertainment, nothing (!) pre-war informative (+ enjoyable/referential/anecdotal) on Kimber, Thornley, Eyton, Gardner etc…. Very few of our cars, no races; nothing and ‘Royal we’ complaining & failing to attract, new people & younger/next generations… finding it difficult to attract new Register Management… to L.A.P??
As for the comment; … our MMM are -not fit- (????) for racing at Silverstone anymore, hence no interest (pffff!)… Why than hanging (only decorum!!) three of the same ‘Racing MMM posters’ in your marquee… and why does the VSCC organise races on Silverstone with 10 pre-war car races (varying 5 to 12 laps, 25 to 40 minutes)… is ***** (or should I better say ‘I can’t identify myself in the reasoning behind..) … I also simply missed the (enthusiastic & loud) Dutch MMM (racing) delegation…
Finally my ‘disputing my intellect’ comment… must be a Mickey Mouse engineer… is just sad. A (this) forum isn’t social media! Onwards; I will not ‘express’ my disappointment when posting a technical information question (mea culpa) and in future ‘efficient & effective’ ask our knowledgeable MMM fraternity….

Happy MMM miles & LAP to all!


gerard van der veen
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Onno

Netherlands
547 Posts

Posted - 19/07/2018 :  13:52:00  Show Profile
As a part of the Dutch “enthousiastic” delegation a small reply.
MG Live has become (imho by choise of the club) an event not suited to MMM’s (certainly not racing ones)
For me it even has lost it’s appeal entirely with the lifestyle focus and other marque races.
Best join us at Brands or any of the other fantastic events with triple M races with 20+ grids of fantastic racers.

As for your quest for a “better” reference book I’d suggest looking at the total production figures of triple M’s compared to the other makes you refference.
For one the book would need a huge diversity to define all minor differences.
Then the potential market for the book would be rather small making it a non commercial endeavour
In my view with the current available documentation we have a fantastic source with plenty of information if you add some common sense for the few gaps there are

Onno "D" Könemann
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kjrj

United Kingdom
83 Posts

Posted - 22/07/2018 :  16:23:30  Show Profile
I have many Dutch and part-Dutch friends. I appreciate their (and, Onno and Gerard) your warmth, enthusiasm and straightforward honesty. Sometimes I think things might be better if the British were more like this.

But I'm reminded of a guide book - I think it was the Insight Guide - which said the Netherlands "is not for you if you don't want an honest answer to 'does my bum look big in this?'" :-)

Kevin Jones
Letchworth, Herts
NA0950
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gerard van der veen

United Kingdom
108 Posts

Posted - 23/07/2018 :  21:27:43  Show Profile
Dear All,
Thanks for your comments; hope to see you all @ Brands Hatch!

This morning, the MMM Bulletin, fell on my doorstep; all my worries are fading away; informative, entertaining & great images!

Kind regards,
Gerard.

gerard van der veen
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