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 Waterless coolant
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Widung

Sweden
171 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2014 :  11:51:46  Show Profile
There will be an article in december in the swedish MGCC Bulletin about a waterless coolant called "Evans Vintage Cool 180degrees".
That product is said to be aimed at our type of cars, containing no water and with a boiling point of 180 degrees.
Claimed advantages is no corrosion and no vapour bubbles at hotspots, giving a more even temperature distribution and thus less risk of warping the top.

- Has anyone tried it and is willing to share their experience?

Jan Widung
PB0635

Ian Bowers

United Kingdom
543 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2014 :  12:03:46  Show Profile
Much discussed here

http://www.triple-mregister.org/forums/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=5597&SearchTerms=waterless

Ian Bowers
OD 6791
J3 3772
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Bruce Sutherland

United Kingdom
1003 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2014 :  13:14:50  Show Profile
Heard somewhere that these 'waterless' coolants don't work with thermo-siphoning systems, i.e. only for forced-circulation coolant systems with a water pump.
Can anyone substantiate?


Bruce. (PB0564)
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Widung

Sweden
171 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2014 :  13:44:23  Show Profile
OK, many thanks for the information!

Jan Widung
PB0635
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Gordon

United Kingdom
637 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2014 :  14:40:02  Show Profile
Bruce,
I believe you are correct. I had a discussion with the UK Evans people and my recollection of that discussion was that it is not suitable for thermosyphon systems since the change in density with temperature is insufficient to promote circulation. Anybody contemplating using a waterless coolant in a thermosyphon cooling system should discuss their proposed use with the manufacturer and get the answer in writing!

Gordon
ex owner of PB 0331, MG4473
Derby
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LewPalmer

USA
2302 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2014 :  15:48:42  Show Profile
There was a very detailed study of the Evans Waterless Coolant done in the US by a well respected company. One of their employees, who is an MG enthusiast posted a very lengthy study on the MG Enthusiasts web site. Rather than post the full study, I herewith post the summary of their findings. Some of this does not apply to all Triple-M engines (references to water pump, electric fan, etc.) but well worth consideration.

SUMMARY OF FINDINGS

Conversion costs of $259 if you do it yourself, or over $400 if you pay a shop to do it.

97%+ removal of all previous coolant is mandatory in order to prevent corrosion.

Inhibitor deposition occurs on aluminum surfaces, which could cause issues in some radiators.

Engines run 115-140oF hotter (at the cylinder heads) with Evans products.

Stabilized coolant temps are increased by 31-48oF, versus straight water with No-Rosion.

Reprogramming ECU fan temp settings is mandatory to prevent the fan from running continuously.

Specific heat capacity of Evans waterless products ranges from 0.64 to 0.68, or about half that of water.

Engine octane requirement is increased by 5-7 numbers.

Computerized ignition must retard engine timing by 8-10o to prevent trace knock.

Engine horsepower is reduced by 4-5%.

Accelerated recession of non-hardened valve seats in older engines is possible, due to brinelling.

Viscosity is 3-4 times higher than what OEM water pumps are rated to accommodate.

Coolant flow rate through radiator tubes is reduced by 20-25% due to the higher viscosity.

Race tracks prohibit Evans products because they are flammable and slippery when spilled.


© Copyright 2012 Applied Chemical Specialties, Inc.

Lew Palmer
PA1169, PB0560
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Onno

Netherlands
534 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2014 :  17:23:23  Show Profile
Lew
Very interesting.
Do you have a link to the complete story?

Onno "D" Könemann
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LewPalmer

USA
2302 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2014 :  21:52:26  Show Profile
I sure do, Onno.
http://www2.mg-cars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&mode=thread&access=10165891505034&subject=8&source=T&thread=2014110115195315188

Then scroll down to the 02 November posting by JRN JIM, Michigan, USA

Lew Palmer
PA1169, PB0560
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Gordon

United Kingdom
637 Posts

Posted - 13/11/2014 :  18:32:01  Show Profile
Lew,
Have followed the thread you gave with interest. I may be wrong but i believe that No-Rosion is part of Applied Chemical Specialities who I think carried out the work in your reference. They are clearly a commercial competitor to Evans Coolant. So if what I understand is correct then the report is not from an independent source and so is open to questions of bias. On the face of it the product appears great but I have no way of assessing the information given and whether I can rely on this absolutely.
Do you know of any properly independent expert investigation on the effectiveness of No-Rosion cooling additive?
I would hasten to say that I have no connection with any of the companies quoted and have not used any of their products - yet!

Gordon
ex owner of PB 0331, MG4473
Derby
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LewPalmer

USA
2302 Posts

Posted - 13/11/2014 :  18:52:59  Show Profile
No, Gordon. I simply passed on a link which seemed to be relevant. The analysis seemed to argue more against Evans Waterless in vintage cars than for NoRosion. I have no personal involvement or experience with NoRosion nor the Applied Chemical Specialties company.

Lew Palmer
PA1169, PB0560

Edited by - LewPalmer on 13/11/2014 18:55:21
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Onno

Netherlands
534 Posts

Posted - 13/11/2014 :  20:21:33  Show Profile
Thanks Lew.

Considering that Evans will most likely publish the best possible results (and may enhance....) I think that we can at least call the report from a competitor levelling the playground.
Some of the points in the report are hard to doctor and are confirmed by Evans.
As the increased viscosity, raised running temp and track limitations.
Where Evans (understandably) only highlight the positives of these facts the report shows the more negative results.

It is safe to say I will not be using Evans partly due to the results posted above partly because of the cost and mostly because I see no problems in using water with a Ethylene glycol based antifreeze.
As long as your cooling system is up to scratch.
So if you have cooling problems look at fixing the system instead of the symptoms


Onno "D" Könemann
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Widung

Sweden
171 Posts

Posted - 13/11/2014 :  21:59:41  Show Profile
Thank you all for expanding on this issue - it made me think again and I will continue with water + glycole.

Jan Widung
PB0635
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Anders Dahlberg

Sweden
63 Posts

Posted - 19/11/2014 :  17:15:29  Show Profile
Hi Jan,

Interesting to hear that it will be an article in the next Swedish MG Bulletin.
There have been quite interesting discussions concerning waterless coolant in the MG BBS / MG-Classic Marque / MGB Technical.
The well known Peter Burgess of Peter Burgess Automotive Performance Engineering in Alfreton does not offer any warranty on their Engines and heads if waterless coolant has been used. The main reason for this is the fact that Engines run too hot which can cause sticking valves and pistondamage.
Looking forward to read the article.
And see what the Swedish writer Thinks!

Regards

Anders in Mariestad :-)

Anders Dahlberg
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Widung

Sweden
171 Posts

Posted - 19/11/2014 :  19:38:22  Show Profile
Hej Anders,

As you will see, I am not the author of the article, but there are other much more knowledgeable contributors that have contributed to it + the study in the link sent by Lew Palmer + testimonies from users and a statement from Evans.

The circumstances are that I plan to install a waterpump in my PB in March. That means taking off the cooling covers on the engine side giving me an opportunity take a look at and evaluate any eventual corrosion inside the engine and the aluminium tube that returns the coolant to the radiator. I filled water + glycole coolant for the first time after the restoration a year and half ago so it should give some indication of the risk of corrosion I will run. At least everyone agrees that you should not use Evans without a waterpump!

In the end I guess it is weighing some risks against others... It's up to everyone to decide for himself after having read about the subject!

How is your supercharged car proceeding? We saw some very nice pictures of it some time ago - is it ready?

Regards

Jan Widung (in Lund)
PB 0635

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Anders Dahlberg

Sweden
63 Posts

Posted - 19/11/2014 :  20:15:59  Show Profile
Hi Jan, Well we are getting closer to starting the Engine again. We have had a lot of trouble with our specialmade Crossflowhead for the 1350cc XPAG Engine that is placed in the 1938 TA-Special that father is working with. Today we made the last adjustments to a new 2mm thick coppergasket that will reduce the CR slightly. This and letting the oil in directly to the rockershaft without passing the CFH and rockerpedestal, together with a sealingprocess for the CFH hopefully will solve the last problems.
We have seen the coolingwater filling up the oilsump earlier and this is something we don't want to happen again.

Regards

Anders







Anders Dahlberg
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Widung

Sweden
171 Posts

Posted - 20/11/2014 :  09:22:41  Show Profile
Your car looks very nice and professionally made! There are not enough articles written about supercharging in my opinion - sharing experiences about problems is even more important - so why not write an article for the Yearbook or one of the bulletins?

During the restoration I reinforced the bottom of the engine, using a Phoenix crank and Corello conrods and modern pistons so that I could use s/c and even bought a Lancia Volumex so I could use that as a step 2 in the project. The engine is running very smoothly and no loss of oil but a bit warm even with its new radiator core, so the waterpump is going to be put in this winter!

Jan Widung
PB 0635
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