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Ian Grace
USA
651 Posts |
 Posted - 18/09/2017 : 22:01:46
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Agreed here too. I have a 1930 Morris Minor fabric saloon which is a time capsule, with just over 4,000 miles from new. However, the original fabric is extremely frail and would probably start to fall apart if rained on for long, so the car is not up to practical use, as is. So do I restore it so I can use it, or just let it slowly moulder at the back of the garage? I think the former, as long as the restoration is performed as accurately as practically possible.
On the other hand, another Minor I have is a 1933 McEvoy special. This car was also very original, but too far gone to save much of the ash frame, so is receiving a 100% restoration which will necessitate replacement of a significant percentage of the original car. So this car will not be 100% original, but surely better to restore than leave as a wreck. The result could not be described as an original car, but it does have unbroken provenance.
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
5986 Posts |
Posted - 19/09/2017 : 06:36:43
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Russ,
There have been two relevant court cases addressing the question of originality of 'vintage' cars, both Bentleys as it happens, but applicable to any similar vehicle I would have thought. One, in 1990, considered the case of 'Old Number One' and concluded that even if a car had few, if any, of its original parts but could be shown to have had a continuous history, it was still the same car. Its value, however, would be determined by the market's view of the importance, or otherwise, of the lack of original parts. The second case, in 2012, considered the case of a Speed Six Bentley which did not have its original engine, but had an original Bentley engine modified to Speed Six specification. The question at issue was the absence of a genuine Speed Six engine but what is interesting is that all involved, i.e. the plaintiffs, the defendants and the court, agreed that the identity of the car was not in doubt, i.e. it was indeed a Speed Six, despite the chassis having been built round little more than a section of the original chassis with the number stamped on it.
As one legal commentator put it:
A vintage Bentley that had been rebuilt out of a piece of the chassis with the number stamped on it would still be worthy of its name. Thereafter, the market value would reflect how much was original and what sort of provenance the vehicle had, but that was a different issue from whether it would merit the description at all.
Simon J
J3437 |
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2017 : 19:37:19
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quote:
Originally posted by MG Maverick
Maybe I could add my two pennyworth as a long term classic car owner and a ' irrepressible enthusiast ' of another marque ( the clubs description of me ). How many classic cars can claim to be totally ' original '? With upgrades, reproduction spares and accessories..from early on the cars life, many owners with their own ideas, interpretations and modifications ? I own two classics ( not MG ) that are the same model same year of 1935. One is on the cusp of being a ' concours standard restoration and the other a complete and totally original model which has never been restored, repainted,upgraded or modified. My ' Concours ' model will be driveable on modern roads and a testament to the car when new. The original car ( abeit a time capsul ) is undriveable, an ' oily rag ' barn find, lovely to look at and attracts a lot of attention. So don't make the mistake of being ' too picky ' we need both types of cars to keep them flourishing. I have had my say !!
CJD
I'm definitely warming to this BB.....anyway nice sentiments I'm sure....so here's my £50k's worth  ....now I don't know about you lot but me I ain't rich enough to be throwing my dough....a possible £50k or more....into a clunker I need to know that my dosh has been relatively well invested as well as returning me a bag of fun....so "picky" I will most certainly be....of course unless I'm spending your £50k.....now! whether it's an original per se(most definitely my preference as it would be for of all of you I'm sure) or a replica (these do give more scope to play around upgrading / updating) it needs to be right and for the right money....for as they say "a fool and his money are easily parted" and I'm definitely no fool trust me I maybe a bit "MMM MG Green" but I sure am learning fast.....so what I don't want to do is rush in eyes wide shut and unload a big bag of dough on a car to find out I need to unload even more to get it right "capiche"......I'm sure y'all do....time I got loads of money not so much  |
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2017 : 19:44:22
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with the rarity of an original F2 / L2 coming to the market anytime soon I'm warming to the idea of a Replica as I would feel no guilt in adding my contribution to the car maybe a S/C uprating the Electrics (12V) Electronic Ignition and the like.....I made the mistake of buying a totally original Ford Escort RS 2000 in Modena green then thinking (and being told) that if I touched it in anyway other than maintaining it I would go to hell in a burning ball of fire......so I didn't....  |
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Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 20/09/2017 : 19:48:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Grace
Agreed here too. I have a 1930 Morris Minor fabric saloon which is a time capsule, with just over 4,000 miles from new. However, the original fabric is extremely frail and would probably start to fall apart if rained on for long, so the car is not up to practical use, as is. So do I restore it so I can use it, or just let it slowly moulder at the back of the garage? I think the former, as long as the restoration is performed as accurately as practically possible.
On the other hand, another Minor I have is a 1933 McEvoy special. This car was also very original, but too far gone to save much of the ash frame, so is receiving a 100% restoration which will necessitate replacement of a significant percentage of the original car. So this car will not be 100% original, but surely better to restore than leave as a wreck. The result could not be described as an original car, but it does have unbroken provenance.
there are varying degrees of restoration I would do preventative and maintenance restoration to stop it from returning to its elemental form....I know the yanks love to over restore Vintage cars I'd definitely resist that for sure |
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Ian Bowers
United Kingdom
937 Posts |
Posted - 21/09/2017 : 18:42:56
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Simon's post above raises some very serious issues.
The courts consider a car which consists of 'not more than a piece of a chassis with a number stamped on it, to be worthy of its name'.
What then of the Register's pages of definitions setting out the physical requirements for a car to be added to the Register, and the description which will then be applied to it.
Ian Bowers
OD 6791
J3 3772 |
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