| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
 Posted - 02/11/2017 : 13:55:53
|
| So not being fully in the picture with this character he apparently built 3x K3 Reps were they all new builds on new chassis as per the one that we all know has a new chassis's and new Vin number as discussed in a previous thread if so why do you think he built them and why do they appear to be so vilified and who would buy one now knowing that they're not an MG in the strictest sense because they're not built on an existing MG chassis of any type is it not being slightly churlish considering the amount of K3 reps going about that are built on F / L / N type chassis's......I think the PG K3's are bang on with the exception of the new chassis's they got all the right bits in the right places......discuss |
|
|
O.Thomas
United Kingdom
755 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2017 : 14:32:19
|
| "Why do you think he built them"- simple, MONEY!! |
 |
|
|
Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2017 : 14:56:28
|
| fair enough.....but if you had the money would you buy one.....there's one up for auction estimate £110k to £150k if it goes for the low end it would seem a bargain wouldn't it? it must have cost more than that to build from what I'm led to believe regarding other Rep types or do you think it won't sell because of its history or lack of being a new build |
Edited by - Russ Jackson on 02/11/2017 14:57:57 |
|
|
|
Westbury
United Kingdom
1949 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2017 : 17:34:48
|
Hello Russ.
I had known Peter for many years,having bought and sold lots of MG parts from/ to him.I have to say I always had mixed feelings about Peter but he did produce quite a number of superb cars.There has always been a great passion especially for the racing models and Peter filled a niche as there was never going to be sufficient original cars for the enthusiast.
He may have been driven by money as are many others in business but that is not a crime and his enthusiasm was without question. One day I telephoned him about some K3 parts when he was in ‘that sort of mood’ and we held a conversation entirely based on ‘K’ types for close to one and a half hours.
He had an immense knowledge of MG cars especially with regard to six cylinder models.
I for one was greatly saddened at his passing.
Best regards,
Chris |
|
|
|
colintf
United Kingdom
1481 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2017 : 18:02:20
|
I've given this thread a lot of thought, and having seen one of the cars in question, to me, as someone new to the MMM world it looked really nice and I would of been happy to say it was mine.
The trouble then comes, to my mind as follows -
Had it been sold to me as a K3 at K3 money then I would of been mortified, both at what I had bought and that I hadn't done enough homework to realise that was was being sold to me was not a K3
Had it been sold to me as a K3 Rep at K3 Rep money while knowingly hiding that it was not on an original MG Chassis then I would not be very happy for the same reasons above
Had it been sold to me as a K3 Rep on a non original MG chassis at a bargain price then yes I would of been happy, but I would be open about what it was, at all times, especially if I ever came to sell again. I would also want to understand the build date implications and what I could / couldn't enter the car into potentially in the future. If the implications were too great, even if it was really really cheap ( kit car money) then I would have to walk away from the purchase. But it's finding out about all these things before not after the purchase that's key!
My fear is when one of these cars is sold on, in such a way that the true identity of what it is is somewhat hidden in a bid for a seller to make much more money, at the expense of an unknowing buyer.
Just my current view, for what little it's worth, but it may stimulate more discussion?
I guess with any potential purchase, it's a case of make sure you do your homework and buyer beware! We are lucky that we have such a good knowledgeable Register.
D0285
Photographer for MGCC (LeMans Classic, Oldtimer Grand Prix etc) & MG Motor (BTCC 2012-5)
http://www.triple-mracing.com/ |
Edited by - colintf on 02/11/2017 18:27:22 |
|
|
|
JMH
United Kingdom
910 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2017 : 18:08:24
|
Ditto Chris' comments. He also rooted out & restored more than 1 genuine K3 to a very high standard, made a lot of repro parts in the days when nobody else did (K3 brake drums & inlet manifolds spring to mind) and was pretty helpful generally. But, then there were the Repros.....
But let's face it if more people were actually interested in Pillar-less Saloons (read production MMMs of all models), DIY specials from basket cases etc, rather than better than original replicas of exotica, then there wouldn't be a problem.
We all generated the market in the first place & lust after the Goodwood/Millie Miglia lifestyle, so we only have ourselves to blame really if dealers chase the money.
And no, I'm not bitter about it all, just a tad disappointed with what "the scene" has become....
JH
|
|
|
|
MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2017 : 18:40:49
|
Excuse my lack of knowledge of this subject being new to the MMM fraternity. How is it possible to get a new chassis ? I have gone to extreme lengths to repatriate the two chassis of J2353 and J4129 from Cyprus, even going to the expence of have J4129s chassis repaired and refurbished by a Russian/Georgian chassis restorer in Cyprus so that the Cypriot customs authorities did not recognise it as an antiquity.
We, in my other marque enthusiasm, do not replicate chassis, then possibly there is not the money aspect/ investment as I see in MGs.
CJD |
|
|
|
Oz34
United Kingdom
2494 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2017 : 19:04:31
|
Maybe I'm wrong, but I had always understood the Peter Gregory cars used, as Jeremy hints, genuine K or N chassis?
My problem with this is that, apart from Colin M's concerns, again as hinted by Jeremy, tourers & saloons are being destroyed.
If the starting point is a rolling chassis, that's one thing, although I would rather see a replica saloon or tourer body on it, but we all know of at least one case of a perfectly good useable tourer body being removed from a car that was on the road, in order to make yet another K3 rep. That's what really gets my goat.
Dave |
|
|
|
Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2017 : 19:07:16
|
| I'm tending to agree that it's starting to look as though it's all about the money.....not just with K3 reps but all types of reps whether built by the pro's or the enthusiasts it's now got to a point as far as I can see where a Rep of any type costs more than an original...obviously it could be a long wait for an original to come along (an original L2 - L2045 popped up the other week after 52 years LOL offers around £80k £85k) whereas a Rep could be as quick as the parts can be sourced and put together what these MMM beauties and their owners have to be wary of is for the big money some reps are demanding there are a lot of other interesting sporting marques old and modern for less......just as an instance I found a cracking 2002 RHD Silver Ferrari F1 360 Spyder with 22000 miles a FFSH with Blue Scuro leather for £69k.....imminently more useable and infinitely more appealing to the younger buyer (except me of course...LOL) alright I know it's not a 1933 MMM MG but hey there's only one way your moneys going if you put it into that.......of course there's always the problem that the prices being demanded for MMM's might scare the younger person away from pre-war MMM cars I cite the Ferrari I just mentioned.....my thought is that the PG K3 Rep at £110k is still a lot of money for something that isn't the real deal though |
|
|
|
PeterL
United Kingdom
1709 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2017 : 19:21:44
|
The element in this discussion that seems to be missing thus far is the heritage aspect. Others owned these cars before us and they remember them as they were. How do you explain to someone who owned the car in his student days that it is now a high performance track car?
I feel there is a real loss that these cars are being turned into high performance toys. Originality is everything and driving them in their original form presents just as much of a challenge if not more.
Cheers
P |
|
|
|
Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2017 : 06:49:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by PeterL
The element in this discussion that seems to be missing thus far is the heritage aspect. Others owned these cars before us and they remember them as they were. How do you explain to someone who owned the car in his student days that it is now a high performance track car?
I feel there is a real loss that these cars are being turned into high performance toys. Originality is everything and driving them in their original form presents just as much of a challenge if not more.
Cheers
P
exactly....and I have turned away from cars that are tourers or have Jarvis or stiles bodies for exactly that reason even the L2 that was for sale because I'd rather do what I want to a car to make it what I want to a car that's already been altered from what it once was if that makes sense |
|
|
|
Cooperman
United Kingdom
752 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2017 : 08:07:26
|
Making more attractive tourers, two seaters or specials out of saloons goes on across all marques. How many Riley Monacos have been turned into tourers or even Brooklands cars? Likewise Alvis 12/50 and 12/60 saloons the same and of course Bentley saloons into Le Man replicas. There is a thread on the VSCC forum entitled "Return of the body snatchers" where cases of perfectly good saloons are being stripped, and their bodies sold on Prewar Car, are highlighted. The trouble is the saloons are much more expensive to rebuild, yet don't fetch the prices of a cheaper to rebuild tourer. As Ollie rightly said at the begining of this thread its all about MONEY.
John Cooper M 628 |
Edited by - Cooperman on 03/11/2017 08:09:14 |
|
|
|
ashley
United Kingdom
261 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2017 : 08:53:32
|
John,
I totally agree with you with the exception of “it’s all about money”. I have a Riley Brooklands Replica (originally a Monaco) this being transformed in the 1970s and 80s using all original stamped components to absolute Brooklands spec and is accepted by The Riley Register. I can not afford an original Brooklands say at £200k plus so this situation and the previous owners is perfect. If I hankered after a K3, well this is impossible but a replica is again perfect.
I am now in the process of a very nice and easy rebuild of an F Type, originally a Salonette but when the body was unusable in the 1950s/60s a correct period J2/F2 or L2 body fitted. So want am I supposed to do? An original ish two seater body or a 2017 Salonette body, bonnet, apron, wings, windscreen, dash, instruments etc etc.
At the end of the day this is MY car and I will do what I want.
So if one wants to change the the body type, keep the original body so it can be put back at a later date or passed on to someone who needs it for their restoration
So in my case it’s not about the money but it is (I am not looking to make money but can’t afford an original)
|
|
|
|
PeterL
United Kingdom
1709 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2017 : 08:54:25
|
Is this pursuit of money facilitated by the rules allowing non original cars to compete? I remember Paul Vautier competing aggressively in his MGYA. You don't have to cut to shop off to enjoy yourself.
If only original cars could compete in club events this sacrificing of the less racy cars might stop. If such a change were to come soon it might save my father's K Type, the much photographed JB854, from the chop; there are rumours it still exists and I would love to see it again the way it was...
Best wishes
P |
|
|
|
Russ Jackson
United Kingdom
102 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2017 : 10:49:50
|
I think there are some simple principled rules to follow ones that I'm trying to follow I might add....
1. if a car has already been restored say in the 70's / 80's and the car was re-bodied as a 2 seater because they didn't know any better.........that would be ok
2. if a car has been found as an original 4 seat / coupe body that is beyond repair then to re-body as a 2 seater.......that would be ok
3. if a car has a perfectly good 4 seater or coupe body and was then re-bodied as a 2 seater......that wouldn't be ok as that would be an act of vandalism
if people have the attitude that it's my car and I'll do what I want to it and that's what they're going to do then all MMM MG's will in time become 2 seat Sport / racing types even K3's which some I've seen get built on the wrong type chassis or chassis altered to suit it's a case of supply and demand I guess enter the Peter Gregory's of the world remanufacturing new cars oh not forgetting Pursang in Argentina......anyway savaging a perfectly good car isn't a bit of me I got to say so I'm waiting for the right car to come along at the right price before I start savaging anything...LOL |
Edited by - Russ Jackson on 03/11/2017 10:51:28 |
|
|
|
Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
5986 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2017 : 12:15:18
|
Ashley,
You say that your Riley Brooklabds Replica is accepted by the Riley Register. Is that ‘accepted’ as a Brooklands, or as a Brooklands Relica, or as a Monaco ‘special’, if I might use Triple-M terminology where the ‘R’ word is not allowed (other than for factory 12/12 Replicas).
Simon J
J3437 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Forum Locked
Topic Locked
