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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
 Posted - 12/10/2019 : 09:13:00
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Not yet Sam, but will do when I have a few minutes. I am hoping to visit Field End Road, Harrow where the accident happened too.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3056 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 11:05:38
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Winterstoke Road, Bristol, BS3 2EJ
Sam |
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Onno
Netherlands
1027 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 12:37:53
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Sorry I have to ask but what are you conserving?
Cottinghams car or all the scraps all the owners afterwards have made it in to?
You could argue that the dismantling is now part of the car so that to has to be conserved.
Onno "D" Könemann |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 14:06:45
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Onno, I am conserving what I have which maybe have add ons, upgrades, embellishments etc etc. The J2s were dismantled in 1964, mixed together and ended up in Cyprus, its not possible to recreate the cars exactly as they were in 1935 as there were later owners, two I think ( I will confirm when I am back in the UK ) . I have seen so many over restored examples of classics ( not just J2s ) where the history/prominence has been sacrificed for the ' perfect ' look.
I have saved both these J2s from the possibility of this fate in my humble opinion.#
At the many shows, gatherings and rallies I have attended its always the ' oily rag ' cars that attract most interest.
Those who have seen my conservations, not only MGs . but other classics, have applauded the fact that so much of the originality has been saved for posterity. It sounds to me Onno that you are of the ' perfect look ' brigade ' , thats fine, but not for me and its my choice.
I received the honour of being the very first ' Founder Members Award ' by the Rover Sports Register ' for my historical research amd attention to detail, such as the Js, so is appreciated by other club members.
Here endeth the lesson. ( The Rover in the photo is an extremely rare 1938 'Doctors Coupe ' I saved, one of only five remaining ).
Chris
J2353
J4129
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Edited by - MG Maverick on 12/10/2019 14:20:16 |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 14:26:53
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Thanks Sam, Looks to be quite an industrial area.
I have already heard from others that this panel is not original as the car ending up overturned in two feet of water and not removed for at least a week would have lost most of its original trim in any case. I can only conserve what I have, even if its later. At least its not reproduction in the modern sense of the word.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
Edited by - MG Maverick on 12/10/2019 14:28:18 |
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Onno
Netherlands
1027 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 14:32:50
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I am definitely not of the perfect look brigade :)
CBL Kimbers last saloon is the perfect example of conservation over restoration and I love the can to bits.
But the big difference is that CBL was in one piece as used and thus could be conserved.
The wonderful pictures you show in the several threads show lovely work but given that both cars where in pieces and not complete (indicated by the new parts in your pictures) I would tend to say there is no chance of conserving a car.
You can rebuild it with mostly original parts and those original parts can be conserved but since no complete car existed the car can not be conserved.
All I wonder is how much historical significance does a piece of scrap ply from the 30-40-50-60’s have?
Onno "D" Könemann |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 14:48:05
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Onno, J4129 is nearly all ( 99 per cent )the original components of this J2. 1 per cent, I sent the original shock absorbers to S & V for refurbishment, but got the ones in return which definately not the ones I sent. The rest of the car is original in all respects. The original gauges were restored by Patric Henry as all were seriously corroded, the rest of the whole car is ORIGINAL. Terry Holden and Tom Wilson ( from the USA )recently came and viewed the car, maybe you should ask them what they thought ? Others are following the conservation, Max Headroom knows the work and has viewed also the conservation, albeit when I first returned the cars to the UK.
My view is just because they were dismantled, does not mean that they cannot be conserved, just the fact that I am required to put them back together does not disqualify me. For J2353, as I am rebuilding as a J4 upgrade, the necessity to use reproduction and non original parts is critical. The majority of the reuseable parts from both J2s are from J4129, so for me it makes sense ( and with the prominence ) to conserve this J2 for prosperity.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
Edited by - MG Maverick on 12/10/2019 14:59:52 |
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Onno
Netherlands
1027 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 15:28:58
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I guess that we have different views of conservation an restoration.
To me you are restoring both cars, one modified (in the spirit of a J4) and one to mostly original spec.
And from what I can see doing a sterling job with both of them
All I tried to do was understand your restoration ethos.
And pose the question wether it is reasonable to assume if a piece of ply can be expected to be of historical significance after 80+ years.
Onno "D" Könemann |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 16:41:44
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Onno, I totally respect your views, that is what debate is all about. I can see where you are coming from, but from the point of view of saving what we have left, is for me of vital importance even if there has been some ' modifications ' by some later owners. It is almost impossible to know what exactly what modifications had been added/altered by DHC for his use in trials etc. All I can do is preserve what I have, if at some time in the future I can find an original archived photograph of J4129 as it was in 1935, then I will bow to the prominence, in the interim, I feel its my duty to conserve what I have ( which are the majority of the parts from J4129.)
J2353 has little history, mostly the parts are missing I have discovered, this is why I am so happy to upgrade to a J4 replica, but at car shows etc. I can assure you which of the two will be of most interest, and it will not be J2353.
Yes, a small piece of ply can be of very important significance, even if not original to the car in 1933, it does fill some of timeline history of the car, the fact that it contains a post code means that this replacement door card was fitted in the 1950s and meant also that the car was possibly in the Bristol area and still ' on the road '.
I have said my piece and will leave it at that. Thanks Onno I appreciate your views which are very relevent.
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
Edited by - MG Maverick on 12/10/2019 16:49:05 |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1626 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 17:39:17
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Chris as you know, when it comes to restoration, there will always be people with different standards and ideals. In my opinion it is a lot harder to conserve an original car and produce a restored/preserved car with built in patina than it is to restore to as new.
As I said to you it is of course your car and entirely your choice how you restore it. I have a lot of respect for what you are doing and the work and energy you are putting in to this restoration and look forward to seeing the end result.
TH |
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LewPalmer
USA
3209 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 18:12:46
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Chris, I applaud your efforts and purpose. But to those who question whether a piece of ply can be original to the period of Cottingham's ownership, I say, it is not the car as Cottingham owned it that you are conserving, but rather the car that Cottingham owned and its entire following history that you are conserving. So well done!
Lew Palmer
PA1169, PB0560 |
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 18:43:01
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Thanks Terry and Lew, My point exactly, I could not have put it any better, its exactly what I am trying to achieve. Luckily, most of what I have is from J4129 from 1933, but obviously ( as with all cars ) there have been some additions/modifications which have suited later owners. As J4129 has mostly all its original chassis, radiator, surround, ash frame, doors, bonnet, engine, gearbox, rear axle, wheels, dashboard with gauges and various numbered plates, nearly all its trim and the remains of two seats justifies me calling this ' Cottinghams ' car. The front windscreen and small racing screens are badly damaged ( as one would have expected ), it obviously was trialled after 1935, but so far I cannot find any information on this...but give it time. I realise that the car will possibly not look ' exactly ' like what DHC would have recognised it if he could come back, but what I am doing is not restoring the car, just conserving what I have. ( sorry to repeat ).
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
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JMH
United Kingdom
910 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 20:03:55
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| Redpoint in Bristol is an indoor climbing centre (& quite familiar to me). The building is an old cinema which after closing down, had several other occupants & business prior to Redpoint setting up. What a small world.... |
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Max Headroom
United Kingdom
292 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2019 : 22:13:01
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I doff my cap to what Lew and Terry have said - but you really should'nt have thrown those old tyres away. It simply isn't original any more 
In all seriousness - I wholeheartedly applaud your efforts and unrelenting patience regarding the smallest of details. Brilliant stuff!
I am hugely impressed by what you have done so far and indeed your continuing tenacity in searching and uncovering more and more history; it is clearly reaping huge rewards, and paints a very vivid picture which in turn keeps the memory of those people in that tragic episode very much at the forefront of owning this car.
Well done!
________________________________________________________________________
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
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Inside every older person is a younger person – wondering what the hell happened.
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MG Maverick
United Kingdom
1045 Posts |
Posted - 13/10/2019 : 05:44:49
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..and to think Jeremy it was your kind self who identified the J2 as Cottingfhams..it is indeed a very small world !
Chris
J2353
J4129 |
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