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 Seeking information about a picture of an MG
 J1 or F1?
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Simon Johnston

United Kingdom
3996 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2020 :  12:25:32  Show Profile
I came across this photo of a competitor in the Ulster Rally in 1933. The car appears to have 8Ē brakes, so presumably a J1 or and F1. Are there any distinguishing features from this angle that would say which it is? There is a reference in the rally report in The Motor to an M.G. Magna, but thereís also a reference to another M.G., so thatís no help.





Simon J
J3437

Onno

Netherlands
665 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2020 :  13:28:32  Show Profile
So you completely disregard the option of a D type ;)

Other than the radiator shape and bonnet length I donít know of any external differences.
Iíd say the radiator leans a bit back so it would be an F type?

Onno "J,D" KŲnemann

Edited by - Onno on 12/09/2020 13:30:20
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Simon Johnston

United Kingdom
3996 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2020 :  13:34:11  Show Profile
Oops, Onno - grovel, grovel!

I think I'd agree that the radiator seems to be sloping like that of a Magna. So probably an F1

Simon J
J3437
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PeterL

United Kingdom
1310 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2020 :  17:32:21  Show Profile
Has a side spare wheel, not sure if the D/J had room for one and their's might have been on the rear.

Rad certainly looks F not J
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bloodysalmon

United Kingdom
1313 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2020 :  18:06:32  Show Profile
Having owned my D-type Salonette for quite a while, I reckon this is a F-type for sure, again due to the rad angle.
Peter, all my research into Salonette builds for the D,J and F suggests they all had the spare wheel on the side. There are period photos of the early J1 showing this to be, the one's with the ladies standing on the front seat.
Wasn't the M-type Coupe with rear fitting tyres.

Chris Blood
D-type Salonette D0407,
TC1472 TC2686 TC4245
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Simon Johnston

United Kingdom
3996 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2020 :  19:01:29  Show Profile
Thanks to all. I think we can safely say it's an F1 although which one remains a mystery unfortunately. Reading the report in The Motor it appears to have been quite an event with cars starting in London as well as Belfast and Dublin with a total road mileage of 750 miles. Some handlin' as we say over here in Norn Iron.

Simon J
J3437
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sas

United Kingdom
70 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2020 :  19:28:22  Show Profile
This F1, CZ1355 was registered in Belfast very early 1934 with numbers from CZ1214 issued that January and reached CZ3648 by years end but this car would appear defunct.

Details may be held by DVA Coleraine or Belfast records office, a number of other MMM cars with CZ issue survive.
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Simon Johnston

United Kingdom
3996 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2020 :  20:31:54  Show Profile
I think you've got your years wrong, Sean. CZ started in November 1932 and finished in October 1935 so CZ 1355 is early 1933, not 1934. I doubt if there were any new F1s registered in 1934.

I recall that when I bought my J2 in 1972 the Fermanagh office still had the original registration documents but these got destroyed after the reorganisation of Local Government a year or so later. Some of the local motor tax office offices still had some old records - I remember looking through the ledgers in the Belfast office in the late 1970s - but even these were got rid of once everything was centralised in Coleraine some years ago. There is no Belfast office any more.

Simon J
J3437

Edited by - Simon Johnston on 12/09/2020 20:32:23
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fmagna

United Kingdom
17 Posts

Posted - 13/09/2020 :  19:04:32  Show Profile
Sorry folks I think the bonnet's too short for an 'F' type and I have no record of that registration.
A J1 Salonette I would say.
Ian Ross
F Type Registry
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Simon Johnston

United Kingdom
3996 Posts

Posted - 13/09/2020 :  19:10:57  Show Profile
Ian,
Thanks for your input. There is no record of the registration for a J1 either. There would appear to have been only three J1 salonettes sold new in Ulster and one of those had an IB (Armagh) registration. The registrations of the other two are unknown but one was sold to someone in Belfast so would probably have been a CZ number.

Itís very hard to judge the length of the bonnet from the angle the photo was taken from but the radiator does deem to have more of a slope than a J. An interesting conundrum.

Simon J
J3437

Edited by - Simon Johnston on 13/09/2020 19:16:22
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sas

United Kingdom
70 Posts

Posted - 13/09/2020 :  20:56:49  Show Profile
You are correct Simon, my previous post should be early 1933, not 34, and which i cannot now edit, although my records show CZ commenced in May 1932. Do you know the total number of CZ plates issued to MG's and who the dealer(s) were.
My remark about Belfast possibly holding some records would refer to a request in the 1970's that local registration records could be deposited in the National archives Of N I if not in Coleraine.
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Simon Johnston

United Kingdom
3996 Posts

Posted - 13/09/2020 :  21:10:58  Show Profile
Sean,
I donít know the number of CZ plates allocated to M.G.s. Victor Ltd was the main agent so all cars came through them, even if ordered elsewhere. My car was ordered through Toppings in Enniskillen but was sent by M.G. to Victor's where my father collected it rather than wait for it to be delivered to Enniskillen. It did, however, have a Fermanagh registration number! But Victor's seemingly registered some cars in Belfast even if destined elsewhere but the records are incomplete and the registration numbers of quite a few cars sold by/through Victor's are unknown.

I greatly regret now that I didnít take more interest in the musty ledgers in the Belfast Motor Tax Office all those years ago. They would be priceless now, but as far as I know they were not preserved. But I shall enquire locally just in case.

Simon J
J3437

P.S. youíre right about the start date of the CZ series - CZ 196 was allocated to an F1 tourer on 16 June 1932.

Edited by - Simon Johnston on 13/09/2020 21:30:32
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chris Wallis

United Kingdom
46 Posts

Posted - 16/09/2020 :  21:23:07  Show Profile
Hi every one i am with Ian on this two things tell me this is a J1,the first is the position of spare wheel mounting through the side of the scuttle just above the headlight in the picture,the F is lower down due to the extra chassis length making it lye at a shallower angle where as the J is more upright with wingnut clamp just above the top of the scuttle.The second is the head lamp tie bar is straight on J and is bent in a vee shape on the F so is a bit further away from the rad,the bonnet is to short for an F.I have two photo's of my J1 which i am currently restoring that were taken an the day of delivery when new and has the delivery label in the windscreen,these photo's are 8x10 so if i can get them on to my computer i will attach [got to find out how to do that].It would be interesting to know if any pictures were taken of J1 salonette's awaiting their fate in the Bone yard.

C L Wallis
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Simon Johnston

United Kingdom
3996 Posts

Posted - 16/09/2020 :  21:39:22  Show Profile
Iím enormously impressed with your detailed knowledge, Chris - thank you - and Iíd love to see the photos you describe. As I said, it would seem that perhaps only three J1 salonettes came to Ulster, one of which had an IB (County Armagh) number. The registration numbers of the other two are unknown. Oddly enough, I was at school, with the son of the local surgeon who bought the IB registered one!


Simon J
J3437
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chris Wallis

United Kingdom
46 Posts

Posted - 17/09/2020 :  19:00:57  Show Profile
As promised here are the two photo's of my J1 salonette on the day of delivery in 1933,i am well on with the rebuild now not far off the painting stage original colour's green wings grey body and it still has the original reg no.









C L Wallis
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Simon Johnston

United Kingdom
3996 Posts

Posted - 17/09/2020 :  19:08:00  Show Profile
Chris,
What super photos. Thank you for posting them and they would seem to confirm the views of those who actually are familiar with salonettes that it is indeed a J1.

Thanks again.

Simon J
J3437
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