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Ian Grace
USA
651 Posts |
 Posted - 15/02/2021 : 21:22:44
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While researching chassis plates for the other thread, Mike Dalby sent me a number of plate images, including the one from his own M Type - 2/M1056.
The plate is clearly a reproduction, as it quotes the chassis number as S/M1056 instead of 2/M1056.
But it was not only this, but the engine number that intrigued me. 114A sounds reasonable, and if an M Type engine, this would have been the 114th engine, since the M Type engine sequence started with number 1.
But then Mike sent me a photo of the block.
Prominent in the photo is the large round boss, with three bolts (there is a similar boss on the other side). These bosses were a feature of the very first few (and I don't know exactly how many) OHC Minor engines.
On the boss on the nearside are clearly stamped the number 114A and 3095. 114A is clearly the engine number, but what is the meaning of 3095? Not a date - what could it be?
Flashback 20 years or so, when I visited Gaydon and transcribed the data for all 34,599 OHC Minors and then copied them into a spreadsheet which became the OHC Minor 'Genome'. I recorded the body type for every car and all of the notes in the notes column, plus the full build data (chassis laid down, test, body shop, final test, despatch, engine number, body type) for all of the chassis known to be surviving at the time. Clearly it was impossible to manually transcribe all of this data for all these thousands of cars and, being before the era of digital cameras, I could not practically photograph every page. And in any case, I would probably not have been allowed to.
However, I found the early cars on the first page interesting and recorded all of their dates and engine numbers.
Not surprisingly, these early engines were not fitted in numerical order, and the lowest engine number in this list of the first 20 cars is number 131 - presumably the 31st engine, since Morris started both their chassis and engine numbers with 101.
But there is an oddity. The very first Minor - chassis MM101, had a rather higher number recorded in the Progress Book. And that number is 3095.
So the engine in Mike's M Type is the engine that was fitted to the first production Morris Minor, whose chassis was laid down on 12th September 1928.
Incidentally, we know that there were 12 pre-production prototype Minor fabric saloons and one prototype tourer - containing 13 engines in total. And here we have the 14th engine in the first production car.
Congratulations Mike - you have an historic engine in your M, and I believe it to be by far the earliest OHC engine in existence.
Now, where did this engine come from? Mike's M was originally fitted with engine 827A, so who replaced it with 114/3095 and where did he get it from? Was the engine saved from a scrap yard perhaps? Sadly, we may never know the fate of MM101.
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Edited by - Ian Grace on 15/02/2021 21:23:51 |
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colintf
United Kingdom
1481 Posts |
Posted - 15/02/2021 : 21:33:53
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That was a very interesting intriguing read Ian, Thankyou!
Colin Murrell
PA0786 (D0285 previously)
Photographer for MGCC (LeMans Classic, Oldtimer Grand Prix etc) & MG Motor (BTCC 2012-5)
http://www.triple-mracing.com/ |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3056 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2021 : 17:15:52
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What was the function of the large round boss and the three screws ? The screws are missing in the picture from the manual.
Sam |
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Mike the M
United Kingdom
481 Posts |
Posted - 16/02/2021 : 19:39:43
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I had know for a while that the engine was one of the first built, but I did not realise that it was the first down the line!!
I have often wondered if the three bolts on either side were for mounting the engine in a cradle, similar the the Austin engine that was used in a boat.
Am trying to find the further history!!
Mike Dalby |
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Blithe Spirit
United Kingdom
185 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2021 : 17:22:02
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Hi Ian,
or was the original Wolseley version intended to be mounted like the contemporary Riley 9? Riley used a tube right through the block resting in trunions on the chassis rails, with a single ring mount at the rear of the gearbox. A sort of back to front version of P/N, both preventing the drive train being strained by a flexing chassis.
Regards,
David
J3768, and Riley 9 Kestrel. |
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Blue M
United Kingdom
1457 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2021 : 19:11:23
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| Blithe Spirit, that sounds plausible since I think the chassis was a Morris design. So the Wolseley one might have been quite different. Happy to be corrected though. |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3056 Posts |
Posted - 17/02/2021 : 20:44:42
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This earlier Wolseley engine (from around 1925) shows OHC Minor features but no sign of a side boss.
As an aside, Wolseley apparently went back to this style of engine block for the Hornet. One wonders, why?
Sam |
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semisport
United Kingdom
61 Posts |
Posted - 22/02/2021 : 21:02:32
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Perhaps Mike's engine could even be this one taken at the 1928 Motor Show?
Chris |
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Ian Grace
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 22/02/2021 : 23:51:32
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Here's a couple more Minor engines from 1928, featuring the bosses on each side of the blocks.
The first is U453, which was fitted to a chassis laid down 30.10.28:
And here's U581, fitted to a chassis laid down 8.11.28.
It is not known when these bosses were deleted from the design, but they were obviously defunct from the outset. I'd be interested to know whether any other early M Type engines have this feature.
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Ian Grace
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 25/02/2021 : 23:33:47
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I think these bosses relate to the casting process, being at the widest point of the casting, so they would have been used to centre the pattern in the sand box. If you look at the above two photos you can see similar but smaller bosses on the cylinder head casting - just under the core plug.
If you look closely, the face of the cylinder block boss is in the same plane as the face of the rear oil drain pipe attachment to the block. Similarly, the smaller boss on the head is flush with the top drain pipe attachment at the rear of the head. And if you look very closely, there is another circular boss at the front of the cylinder head - just above the oil drain casting. These three boss faces define the right hand extremity of the casting. (On the left side, the oil restrictor pin boss and the manifold face perform the same function.)
Perhaps, at least for the blocks, after the first few, the casting process was adapted in some way for quantity production by a slightly different method and the bosses were no longer necessary. |
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Ian Grace
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 26/02/2021 : 00:08:28
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And Sam, I think the reason the earlier Wolseley block doesn't have these bosses is because, unlike our blocks, the Wolseley blocks incorporated the wide rear mounting.
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Blue M
United Kingdom
1457 Posts |
Posted - 26/02/2021 : 12:43:34
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| Could they have been part of an engine assembly system which wasn't used? |
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Simon
United Kingdom
447 Posts |
Posted - 26/02/2021 : 17:13:52
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There may be indeed some evidence that this was that same 1928 Motor Show exhibit as the 3 bolt heads now shown (which have no obvious purpose) line up with the attachments for the "Morris Minor 8HP" plate shown on the 1928 photo. Great if that were so.
Simon C. |
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