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Peter Croft
New Zealand
52 Posts |
 Posted - 17/08/2018 : 03:29:21
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Over the years there has been a number of requests on this forum made by owners seeking information re their cars. I have been most impressed with the ability of members to provide all manner of information. As a result I seek the help of those far more expert than I in an attempt to fill in some gaps .
Request 1.
1935 MG PA 1754 UK Reg No BXN740. Red and red. Once my car but now well looked after by its subsequent and current owner for over 30 years now . I have copies of the MG records showing its 1st owner was H G Debnam, 17 Atherstone Mews, SW7. From my research Henry George Debnam was from 1913, a car dealer with several addresses within the Mews. Obviously a keen motorist as he is mentioned on the 'mpl' site,with a photo (not in an MG) He also held the patent for a rotary engine. His business was wound up Dec 1939 (age or WW2 ?)
The P type was supplied with a few extras including an Ashby steering wheel, clock, oil and water temp gauges, quick filler cap and bonnet strap.
The car was returned to MG some 76 days after purchase, for work with what appears to be wheel alignment issues. Its speedo reading was 3747 miles or about 50 miles per day. That certainly indicates a high level of use. What was that use and did Mr. Debnam retain ownership or sell it on ?
Photo: shows car on Westminster Bridge, 1984. I didn't stop too long !
Any information greatly received.
Request 2.
This is a little cheeky as it relates to my HRG , not an MG.but not MG Car Club badge. Thank you for the understanding. The cars 1st owner, it was obtained from the London agent Follett , Nov 1949, was W.Selby, Falcon Hotel, Falcon Wood London SE. It was sold to its 2nd owner, see photo, around Aug/Sept 1950 from I believe an address in Weston super Mare. Was it a hotel I wonder and was Selby something to do with the trade or a travelling salesman perhaps. An HRG was an expensive toy in those days.I have checked Autosport and Motor Sport adverts without luck. Maybe in Motor or Autocar perhaps.
Again any info on Mr W Selby greatly appreciated
photo: Peter Howell with his spoils 1951
Peter and J 3096
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3672 Posts |
Posted - 17/08/2018 : 04:50:19
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Hello Peter
I'm glad that you have made this posting, because it prompted me to look up the record for PA1054 in the Register's files, which revealed just one item - an index card recording the name of the current owner (Vince Gabelich) wef 23 June 1989. I have e-mailed both of you with a request for a general update about the car but in the meantime thanks for the splendid picture - a nice recent time warp image!
Nothing yet about Mr Debnam and his business, alas - I will go a ferretting!
Dick Morbey
PA-PB 0743
Frieth, Oxon, UK |
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Vitesse
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 17/08/2018 : 21:44:21
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I do like unusual surnames! They are so much easier to research!
Henry George Debnam was born in Walthamstow on September 7th 1880, the fourth child of Henry and Mary Debnam. Henry senior was a 'general labourer' and the family can be found at 8 Colchester Road, Walthamstow on the 1881 census. By 1891 Henry senior was an 'agricultural labourer' and they were living on a farm in Ponder's End.
I haven't found him on the 1901 census, but during that year he married Emily Barnard in Bishop's Stortford and by 1911 they had three children, living at 14A Leamington Road Villas, Westbourne Park. He's described as both a motor car repairer and an employer; one of those employees was his wife's sister Ada Barnard, who was his clerk and shared the house.
By 1919 Henry and Emily were living at 17 Sedlescombe Road, Fulham, where they stayed until at least 1930. Because he had a business he was also able to register to vote from the Atherstone Mews address and by 1933 his home address is noted as Cottesloe, Sweetcroft Lane, Hillingdon.
After that it gets murky! On the 1939 Register Henry is at 39 Church Avenue, Harrow.
It appears Henry and Emily may have divorced or separated - as later 1930s records seem to associate him with a wife called Gwendoline, who may have been much younger than him, and Emily is on the 1936 electoral roll in Sutton, living at 85 Priory Road with a Grace Edna Green; in 1934 she was living in Battersea. Henry and Gwendoline pop up at various addresses, so may have been moving between various rented properties?
The last trace I can find of Henry and Gwendoline in the UK is on a 1952 electoral roll at 7 Grosvenor Road, N10 and he appears to have died in Transvaal in South Africa in 1971. |
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Peter Croft
New Zealand
52 Posts |
Posted - 17/08/2018 : 23:53:01
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Thanks Vitesse for your good work. Now what can you do with W. Selby ?
All very interesting but it leaves more questions than answers I think you will agree.
Debnam gave 17 Atherstone Mews as his address but also used a number of other numbers within the Mews as his address. I assume he perhaps was renting garage space at those addresses, but why use one of his work addresses ?
In 1935 he was 55, old to buy a P type I would have thought and then to chose to live in Hillingdon, some 14 miles from his place of business is strange, but could account for the mileage on the MG. Surely accommodation was available in the Mews.The trip from Harrow was a little shorter but still a long way from work compared with the Fulham address.
As said all a little strange.
As his father was Henry, did H.G.D have a son also called Henry George ( jnr) who may indeed have lived at no 17 and been the owner of the car or was it in fathers name but used by a son? Almost endless possibilities.
Peter and J3096
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Vitesse
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 18/08/2018 : 16:25:36
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As far as I can tell, there were only three Debnam offspring. Agnes Emily Debnam and Grace Edna Debnam - both born in Leyton - and Sidney Bernard Debnam, born in Norwood. So it looks like the family weren't averse to moving around. Grace Edna Debnam is of course identical with Grace Edna Green, with whom Emily was living in 1936.
As I said, it all gets a bit murky in the mid-1930s.
1930 Electoral Roll
Henry George Debnam and Emily Debnam are registered at 17 Atherstone Mews AND at 17 Sedlescombe Road, Fulham
1933 Electoral Roll
Henry George Debnam is registered at 17 Atherstone Mews (abode - Cottesloe, Sweetcroft Lane, Hillingdon)
1936 Electoral Roll
Henry George Debnam and Clara Debnam are registered at 17 Atherstone Mews (abode - Cottesloe, Sweetcroft Lane, Hillingdon)
1937 Electoral Roll
Henry George Debnam and Gwendolyn Debnam are registered at 285 Fulham Road (abode - Four Ways, Hudnall, Berkhamstead)
1938 Electoral Roll
Henry George Debnam and Gwendoline Debnam are registered at 39 Church Avenue, Rayner's Lane
1939 Electoral Roll
Henry George Debnam and Clara Debnam are registered at 17 Atherstone Mews (abode - 39 Church Avenue, Rayner's Lane) On the entry for Church Avenue, she's Gwendoline!
1939 Register (compiled September 1939 for national registration purposes)
Henry George Debnam and Gwen Debnam are at 39 Church Avenue. There is also one closed record at that address, which would indicate someone who - if still alive - would be under 100 years old. Possibly their child, or perhaps a domestic servant.
I had misread the form originally and assumed the closed entry was Gwendolyn/Gwendoline/Clara. In fact she was only a couple of years younger than Henry; also in the household is an Alice M Bailey, described as a retired dramatic actress, who may be Gwen's mother. If so, she became a mother just after her sixteenth birthday!
I've also established that George and Gwendoline were still at Grosvenor Road until 1956.
George's son Sidney may have been running the business in 1939 - on the 1939 Register his profession is given as 'Motor Engineer Works Manager'. He and his wife lived in a flat in Stainforth House, 96 Clapton Common.
So, overall, the family seem to have preferred living 'north of the river' and commuting, even though the family business was in Kensington. Given that location, they may have been in the business of maintaining 'high class conveyances' - and able to charge accordingly! |
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Vitesse
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 18/08/2018 : 17:18:36
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I'm afraid without further details W Selby is going to be impossible to trace. The pub - a typical 1930s south London suburban local - is still there, and is now a branch of the Harvester chain. But the surname Selby is so common ...
Further to Debnam, the company appears in a list of official Daimler, Lanchester and BSA dealers, published in The Times 24/9/1934 - address 9-15 Atherstone Mews. |
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Vitesse
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 18/08/2018 : 23:53:15
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| Oh, and re the Fourways address - put HP4 1QP into Google Maps and then go to street view ... |
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Vitesse
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2018 : 10:59:53
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| A further thought about the Hillingdon and Rayner's Lane addresses - both are within a few minutes' walk of the Underground stations of the same names, from which there are still direct Piccadilly Line trains to Gloucester Road - and from there it's just a minute or so walk to Atherstone Mews. |
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NZ_monty
New Zealand
61 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2018 : 21:40:25
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Whilst I can't offer any input on this search it's given me a nudge in the right direction for finding the first owner of my J - stupidly I never thought to check the census! Which is amazing given the family research we have been trying to do! So thanks for the post Peter and Vitesse for the idea.
Great to see Big Ben wrapped in scaffolding, 34 years later I see from a recent work trip nothing has changed :) :)
Cheers,
Daniel
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Vitesse
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2018 : 22:16:14
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| Do bear in mind that the latest UK censuses which have been released are 1911, so the first owner of your J might still have been in short trousers. However, if you have a full name - and preferably an idea of the address - you can usually back track people from the 1939 Register, sometimes via electoral rolls and phone books. Travel records can sometimes be the key to the whole thing! Happy to help if you need it. |
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Peter Croft
New Zealand
52 Posts |
Posted - 19/08/2018 : 22:56:33
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Further thanks Vitesse, I am impressed with your research
I am disappointed however I do not have enough info to find out more about W Selby. HRG's were not cheap so there must be a story hiding away somewhere. I wonder if anyone knows if Folletts records exist somewhere, as they were major seller of quality cars etc.
Re the Underground stations The tube is a fantastic mover of people and I do understand that it may well have been the means of transport H.G Debnam took to get to work but............
Questions still remain unanswered.
1. An average of 50 miles per day in the 1st couple of months is a lot of driving. Was the car used in some long distance motoring events.
2.Debnam was 55 when he 1st owned the car.Why a small 2 seater? What about the wife and kids? Maybe he had moved in with his new lady and no need for a family car.Was he reliving his youth ? (mid life crisis).
Peter and J3096
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Colin McLachlan
United Kingdom
987 Posts |
Posted - 20/08/2018 : 10:47:29
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quote:
Maybe he had moved in with his new lady and no need for a family car.Was he reliving his youth ? (mid life crisis).
Been there, done that, got the MG 
Colin
Markinch, Fife.
PA 0613
MG3242
Register No. 2591 |
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briang
United Kingdom
218 Posts |
Posted - 27/08/2018 : 12:11:45
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"RE"living your youth Colin? I doubt you ever stopped!
Brian |
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