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 PA 1024 a look into the engine
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sullivan

USA
264 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2017 :  20:01:10  Show Profile
I have sent the engine of PA 1024 out to a specialist to look over and rebuild. After sitting there the last three months the "Tomb" has been opened. The shop sent me these pictures late on Friday afternoon.
So the crank etc. are rusted now as the car has been sitting idle since the 1970's. Looks like the block has been sleeved as well. Have any of you dealt with this much decay and recovered the engine? Engine was frozen when I started but now they have been able to take completely apart.
Your thought's...

Best,

































Brian W Sullivan

Edited by - sullivan on 06/05/2017 20:23:27

LewPalmer

USA
2014 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2017 :  22:21:03  Show Profile
Yes, Brian. I have seen worse on my own PA and PB Airline. The PA cylinders were cracked and rusted badly. They had to be completely broken out and replaced with wet sleeves. The crank was badly rusted and the journals were .065 under sized. The cam was a ball of rust, and the block was cracked in several places. Nonetheless, it was brought back to life and now runs well.
The PB pistons were solidly glued to the cylinder walls. There was what looked like black foam rubber in the sump. After figuring it out, it turned out to be congealed oil, on its way back to being a dinosaur.

So take heart, almost everything can be replaced if need be. All it takes is time, money, and determination. You never thought restoring one of these wonders was going to be cheap and easy, did you? But in the end, it is worth it.

Lew Palmer
PA1169, PB0560
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g waiting

United Kingdom
351 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2017 :  22:26:31  Show Profile
Hi Brian,
It just looks like a normal grotty old engine to me. Get everything dismantled and cleaned up properly before making any decisions.
Good luck,
Garry
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DDMDSN

New Zealand
244 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2017 :  00:54:38  Show Profile
Hi Brian
Might be surprised when all carefully stripped and cleaned down, could well be mostly OK. The big test is crack testing. Almost anything is repairable to at least a certain degree as mentioned in the discussion, or depending on budget. Sump looks good, nice to keep the original magnesium sump if possible I reckon too.
Agree very much worth the effort. Local PA owner just about completed his engine from a similar condition and time in storage. Start-up day soon, very exciting indeed.
Following your engine progress with great interest, do keep us posted!
Donald
PB0759
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sullivan

USA
264 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2017 :  17:39:17  Show Profile
Thank you for the positive encouragement.

My specialist sent me a message telling me the engine was Frozen and how many years had it been since I turned the engine over. Also was confused that the cam was at TDC and the cylinders were not.

I explained that the last time turned over was just before delivery to him three months ago and this is why the engine is not at TDC. A phone call a couple hours later found that they had put the engine into a hot bath to free things up and now cylinders were moving and coming loose.
This initial message from him cause the great concern.

Brian W Sullivan
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sullivan

USA
264 Posts

Posted - 09/05/2017 :  01:15:39  Show Profile
Hello Gents,
Went to the specialist shop this afternoon and reviewed the engine. Turns out the white metal and all bearing surfaces are in fine condition. Looks as though the last one to do machine work on the block, crank and white metal surfaces did a fine job. Evidently though the one assembling the engine pounded things back together as the strike marks show where hit with an object to re-assemble.
appears at this point that the engine was rebuilt and then left to sit without running since the 1970's.No oil on crank case parts caused over time to rust.

The block was not lined in the past. The steel rings were frozen in the bore but came loose with one ring breaking on #2. All in all came apart nice and clean. They are crack testing everything and if ok and the block pressure tests fine it should be just a clean up with new rings and honing and then back together. The specialist is testing hopefully this week.

Have hopes of good news but will deal with what is found as it need be.

Best,

Brian W Sullivan
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wallism

United Kingdom
32 Posts

Posted - 18/05/2017 :  20:27:33  Show Profile
I'm gagging to read the next part of this fascinating story.

Mark Wallis 1930 M-Type DV5170
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sullivan

USA
264 Posts

Posted - 18/05/2017 :  21:28:23  Show Profile
Yes,
I too am Gagging to hear. Seams that I was able to get to the front of the Qu for a brief moment and have now moved again to the rear.....
Waiting for them to do pressure test on block and crack testing as before....

Three months to take it apart so.....
who knows?

Brian W Sullivan
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gerard van der veen

United Kingdom
73 Posts

Posted - 19/05/2017 :  22:14:00  Show Profile
Hi Brian,
I'm also very interested in your next step(-s). Keep us updated; like to follow/learn from your steps as I have to do it also.
I am just exploring my car >cleaning & counting the missing bits; even turning the engine I have postponed till a later date... Just removed my petrol tank; missing one corner!
Good luck with your next phases!

gerard van der veen
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sullivan

USA
264 Posts

Posted - 20/05/2017 :  00:45:25  Show Profile
Hi Gerard,
One of the great things I have found is that this club is loaded with helpful people who know a great deal about our cars. It would be a lot more difficult without their help. I want to restore the car back as close as I can to original condition. Along those lines my specialist wants me to consider a different gear box to keep the revs down. However I plan to use the original gear box and to enjoy the car as it was meant to be. I am owner after all of a Restoration shop (furniture) and like things as they were.

Will add updates as I go along.

Best,

Brian W Sullivan

Edited by - sullivan on 20/05/2017 00:47:18
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JMH

United Kingdom
698 Posts

Posted - 20/05/2017 :  08:10:53  Show Profile
Bit of a weird comment that one from your specialist Brian. You have a 55mph speed limit. A 4 cyl MMM will be happiest between 3 & 4K revs, loaded, but not hammered. It will out last you if built correctly & kept happy with clean oil. My Father reckoned that low revs killed bottom ends in our cars.

JH
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coracle

United Kingdom
129 Posts

Posted - 20/05/2017 :  15:15:54  Show Profile
Changing the gearbox will not affect the top gear ratio and thus the "specialist's" comment is perhaps aimed at the intermediate gears.

PAs have very low 1st and 2nd gears; 3rd is OK. A PB box is a much better alternative; the big jump from 2nd to 3rd is avoided. These gearboxes are however much harder to find. None of them have synchromesh.

Brian, If you are not experienced in a crash (non synchromesh) gearbox this is a delight to come for you.
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sullivan

USA
264 Posts

Posted - 20/05/2017 :  17:03:52  Show Profile
My specialist has worked on many a British car but not a triple-m. There are maybe four PA/PB's in the State where I live. Have not witnessed a running car yet.

As to the delight to come... Fortunately I live out near the edges of the Seattle Metro area and there are farm lanes near my rural home for the novice PA driver to learn shifting with out traffic presure. 55mph will be plenty I'm sure however am planning to fit a super charger to the nose when I get the engine done. My specialist does not know our cars but no one in my area does. So I have the wonderful group of very helpful folk here for that!

kindly,

Brian W Sullivan
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LewPalmer

USA
2014 Posts

Posted - 20/05/2017 :  17:47:00  Show Profile
Jeremy, we haven't had a 55 MPH speed limit for years. Most interstate highways are 65 or 70 MPH, although I'm not recommending that anyone run their Triple-M car on the interstates. Too many big trucks and inattentive drivers.

Lew Palmer
PA1169, PB0560
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JMH

United Kingdom
698 Posts

Posted - 20/05/2017 :  19:23:43  Show Profile
By changing the box, I'd assumed that meant subbing in a modern one - my mistake. The PA box may have low 1st & 2nd, but that makes them ideal for trials. My J2 uses one most of the time because the original box is a lot more noisy. In an unblown car you can keep it on the cam at a ridiculously slow speed & doddle up things. Lew, I obviously watch too many 70s re-runs on the telly!

JH
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sullivan

USA
264 Posts

Posted - 22/05/2017 :  17:56:12  Show Profile
Yes Jeremy,
The specialist did indeed ask me to consider subbing in a modern one. I do not plan on doing this. The box I have is fine and as noted I plan on leaning the delights of the crash box.

Lew has be exceeding helpful to me And I am grateful to him, by providing me other local owners information who are within reach of my location. So hoping I may soon have the experience of one near by for guidance. And hoping to visit a real running triple-m.

Best,

Brian W Sullivan
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