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Cowley
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2011 : 19:09:58
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I was fortunate to acquire a period sepia photograph recently which features an MG K3 Magnette : Reg Nş JB 1475 with what appears to be Elsie 'Bill' Wisdom in the driver's seat. The photo also appears to have been signed by the driver 'Yours sincerely Elsie M Wisdom'
The reason for joining this forum and for starting this topic is to see if anyone on here knows more about the car in question, or indeed this quite extraordinary lady?
From a brief internet search just carried out, I gather that 'JB 1475' was also used by Capt George Eyston / Count Johnny Lurani in the 1933 Mille Miglia - winning the 1100 cc class.
I also gather that Elsie was married to motoring journalist and gentleman racer Tommy Wisdom, and their daughter was Ann Wisdom who navigated for Pat Moss during her 1960s rally career.
The following article > http://speedqueens.blogspot.com/2010/07/elsie-wisdom.html < states the following :
'In 1933, she scored another top-three finish in a prestigious Brooklands race. Driving an MG Magnette, she was third in the JCC International Trophy, behind Brian Lewis and Eddie Hall. That years race was a real war of attrition over 250 miles. There were seven finishers out of at least 28 starters.'
I have attached a small watermarked thumbnail below (watermarked for obvious reasons - not that I am implying that any forum members are unscrupulous!), and Elsie's signature can be clearly seen in the bottom right hand corner. Although I am only taking that as an indication of who the driver might be, every photo I have found of Elsie has her wearing the same 'plectrum' shaped goggles. The Italian flag and Union Jack are also clearly visible on the car, which would suggest that it was taken after the 1933 Mille Miglia race.
Any help or assistance concerning further information about this particular K3, Elsie's career, or even when the car appeared as Entry Nş 18 as shown in the photo. Many thanks.
David |
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JMH
United Kingdom
911 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 21:18:27
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David,
A most interesting photo..... K3003 with what looks to be a C type tail!
JH
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Cowley
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 00:56:48
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Thank you JH - it means a great deal to me knowing that someone on here thinks it is an interesting photo! :-)
I assume the 'K3003' that you mention is JB 1475's chassis number? Is this particular car's history documented at all online, or in print anywhere?
David |
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DickMorbey
United Kingdom
3672 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 08:01:33
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David
If this car is K3003, the Register lists it as being in Australia since at least 1986 in the ownwership of one Peter Briggs. It's described as being used by George Eyston and County Lurani in the 1933 Mille Miglia.
There are many people with much more knowledge that I have about K3s, and I am sure their comments will follow...
Best wishes
Dick |
Edited by - DickMorbey on 04/05/2011 08:02:12 |
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JMH
United Kingdom
911 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 09:26:16
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David,
The history of this car is well recorded and has been published in various sources over the years, the most comprehensive probably being the "K3 Dossier" (out of print), many people have spent years researching these cars. I find the "C" tail interesting as the car competed in the MM (April 33) with a 2 seat "slab tank" body, but crashed on the way to an event in May that year, subsequently re-appearing with a different "lightweight" "slab tank" body at Manin Beg in July. My guess is the photo was taken in May 33, there is a picture of the car (with Wisdom) on the Brooklands Society Web archive at Brooklands, post 33 International Trophy (I think), which was early May, wearing the number 18. I have lots of period pictures of the car, but not (I think) one with the pointed tail, please get in touch if you'd consider letting me have a copy. Just like today, cars configurations changed frequently to suit regulations, classes & ongoing development.
JH |
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Cowley
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 09:59:32
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Thank you Dick for your contribution, and to yourself JH for some lovely period detail that helps me immensely.
I haven't had a great deal of time to take it all in yet JH - as I'm supposed to be working, but you know how exciting and distracting research can be!
I wonder, could you give me the link to the Brooklands photo you mention of Wisdom in No 18 please? I have found the archive itself and all of the galleries just seem to be listed in C1, C2, C3, etc form with no real clue to their contents. The search option didn't work either - or maybe I am looking at the wrong site?
I'll get back to you later regarding your other points. Many thanks again for your input.
David |
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Colin Butchers
United Kingdom
1483 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 11:00:19
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David, You have come upon what could possibly be the proverbial "can of worms" frequently associated with the history of the K3s ! The original JB 1475 (chassis number K3003) as driven by "Bill" Wisdom, George Eyston etc. was last heard of (so far as I am aware), in Germany in 1953 when it was badly damaged in an accident and has not put in an appearance since. There is a second K3 chassis which was unearthed by Michael Ellman-Brown in the 1960s and subsequently rebuilt by Philip Bayne-Powell which is thought to have emerged in pre-war years but the chassis number cannot be clearly discerned. Much forensic examination was carried out and the best that could be traced was "K3**3" and therefore this chassis is referred to either as "K33" or "The other K3003". Phil B-P was able to have the Registration Number JB 1475 allocated (or re-allocated !) to the car, and this is the car which was sold to the Peter Briggs Museum in Perth, Australia. I think that it has since been sold but is still somewhere in Australia.
Whether the two cars are in fact one and the same is beyond my scope of knowledge !
Colin Butchers. |
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Cowley
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 11:09:21
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Thank you for that Colin, and I must admit that I have indeed found the odd mention of the mystery surrounding K3003, K33, etc. In all reality though I have a somewhat lesser interest in the more recent history of the car (or cars?) in question, as all I am really trying to do is learn more about it's pre-war history. As the above photo was taken pre-war, then I think we can all confirm that it was indeed the 'original' JB 1475 : Chassis Nş K3003.
Is this K3 Dossier out of print book as rare, and therefore costly, as I am led to believe?
David |
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Cowley
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 13:13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by JMH
My guess is the photo was taken in May 33, there is a picture of the car (with Wisdom) on the Brooklands Society Web archive at Brooklands, post 33 International Trophy (I think), which was early May, wearing the number 18.
I guess this is the photo you are referring to JH - complete with laurel wreaths on the two cars, Cecil Kimber stood alongside, and Elsie Wisdom sat in the car?...
http://brooklands-society.co.uk/Gallery_M8/target38.html
So JB 1475 : K3003 was Nş 18 for the 1933 JCC International Trophy at Brooklands in which Elsie Wisdom / XXXXXXX finished 3rd, but as my photo shows the car complete with wheelarches, full width windscreen, registration number, lights, etc is it possible to tell if my photo was taken before or after the Brooklands event - which I gather took place on 6 May?
David |
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JMH
United Kingdom
911 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 18:01:08
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Yes,
The other car is K3006, in which Eddie Hall finished 2nd. I would say the photo was most probably taken after Brooklands (why test in full road trim just before an event with different body configuration than the event, also with radiator number & no side numbers?) but before Shelsley Walsh (May 27th), where the car non-started due to a crash en-route, before re-appearing at mannin Beg in July with a "lightweight body".
JH |
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Cowley
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2011 : 22:00:50
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So JH...
a) Do you have any photos showing the rear of 'K3003' at the 1933 International Trophy, OR of the crashed car en route to Shelsley Walsh?
b) What was the Entry No and who was supposed to be driving at Shelsley Walsh?
c) Do you have the Entry No, Crew and Result for the 1933 Manin Beg as well please?
d) Would somebody who has Mike Hawke's K3 Dossier be able to scan the 'K3003' relevant pages and either upload them here, or email them to me please?
David |
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Jon Marsh
United Kingdom
49 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2011 : 10:50:31
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Hi David,
My father lived in Woking in the 1930s and went to Brooklands regularly. In his photo album is a picture of JB 1475 outside the clubhouse I think, next to JB 1472. I am not sure how to post photos on this forum, but if you like I can email this picture to you.
Jon Marsh |
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Robin Hamblett
United Kingdom
533 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2011 : 11:13:10
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Ho Jon and David
Please can you email me these pictures so I can upload them to the secure historic images section on the website. As such they cannot be downloaded or reproduced from here.
Many thanks
Robin Hamblett
MMM Registrar
robin.hamblett@gmail.com |
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JMH
United Kingdom
911 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2011 : 21:28:58
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David,
To answer your questions as best I can:
a) No not a complete view of the rear, but enough to see the slab tank. no pictures of the car crashed prior to Shelsley.
b) at Shelsley it was entered by Eyston & Lurani, to find the entry number you'd have to look at the entry lists.
c) Mannin Begg was Eyston & he retired.
d) It's not possible to scan & upload or otherwise duplicate pages from the "Dossier" due to copyright of the authors & publishers.
JH |
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Cowley
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2011 : 22:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Marsh
Hi David,
My father lived in Woking in the 1930s and went to Brooklands regularly. In his photo album is a picture of JB 1475 outside the clubhouse I think, next to JB 1472. I am not sure how to post photos on this forum, but if you like I can email this picture to you.
Jon Marsh
Good evening Jon, and many thanks for your interest in this subject. I am very envious of your father, as I cannot think of anything more thrilling than to be stood watching the cars blast around the Brooklands banking in their heyday!
Similarly, I would very much appreciate a copy of the photo that you mention. My email address is david.sims63 @ ntlworld.com - removing the two gaps before sending of course! Many thanks! 
David |
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Cowley
United Kingdom
97 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2011 : 22:55:55
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quote:
Originally posted by JMH
I have lots of period pictures of the car, but not (I think) one with the pointed tail, please get in touch if you'd consider letting me have a copy.
JH
quote:
Originally posted by Robin Hamblett
Ho Jon and David
Please can you email me these pictures so I can upload them to the secure historic images section on the website. As such they cannot be downloaded or reproduced from here.
Many thanks
Robin Hamblett
MMM Registrar
robin.hamblett@gmail.com
I have no problem at all letting either of you have a copy of the above image, however I will probably reduce the size a little from the original size, and I may even remove Elsie Wisdom's autograph from your versions - purely to protect my original print, which I am sure you can both sympathise with.
David |
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