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Brian Kelly
USA
526 Posts |
 Posted - 25/06/2008 : 04:10:59
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While at an MG car show in Kansas City last week, I met an owner of an N type. Although the car wasn't present, it brought, what I thought, was an interesting question.
If all N-types are designated with NA chassis prefixes, what is the designation model of a car that was built on an exported chassis-only, which was constructed during the later run, as in the NB period?. Chassis exported and a local overseas shop builder fabricates the body, but the body has rear hinged doors, for example.
Just being curious.
Brian
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 25/06/2008 : 10:06:27
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Brian
The cut off between NA and NB is a mute point - there are NA's with front hinging doors and NB's with rear hinging doors.
There are also special coachbuilt examples of each with various body styles.
The development of the MG sports car was by modern standards meteoric, between 1933 and 1935 alone you have three models of L type Magna, 4 models of K type and two models of N type Magnette (and this is just the 6 cylinder sports cars).
You also have the 4 seater and saloon variants too!
All that said it is important to remember also that car ownership was a reserve of a very few people in the 1930's and those that could afford a sports car did not always want an "off the shelf" car.
Most of them wanted that little extra and coachbuilt specials were common place.
The recognised cut off for the NB is the build date of 1935 and the improved engine (double breather block) although this is not common to all of these cars.
The PB also has this double breather block (but again like the NB not all PB's have the improved block), probably in an effort to stop crankcase gases smoking out the cars occupants - not sure it is any better to be honest.
I always understood NA chassis numbers go from 0251 - 0750 and NB from 0751 onwards.
There will doubtless be proof to the contrary of everything I have stated too - so beware!
Hope I have helped rather than confused
Regards David |
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Bob Clare
United Kingdom
278 Posts |
Posted - 25/06/2008 : 16:17:03
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The formal view seems to be that chassis number NA 0785 was the first of the NB production run. So far so good; however, the first of what appears in Triple-M Register records to be a fairly continuous NB run for which we have reasonably convincing provenance and photos from owners, is NA 0783. We know NA 0783 was supplied ex-factory on 3/6/35. Though we don't have delivery dates for the surrounding cars, we have photos of some. For instance, those with NB bodies are NA 0758, NA 0776, NA 0787, NA 0791. However, we have photos of a number of cars with NA bodywork around the same time, e.g. NA 0757, NA 0763, NA 0785 and NA 0795 which is the last NA style car we have information on.
Now it would be sensible, as Mike Allison pointed out to me a few years back, that some NA series cars would end up with NB bodies, since only the latter would have been available from the factory in the event of the earlier bodies requiring replacement. However, the converse i.e. damaged NB bodies being replaced with NA pattern ones, seems less logical.
Just to complicate matters, we know that the first 2 breather engine was 1000A135N and we know that was fitted to NA 0751 and though we havenÆt got a photo of that, we have of NA 0757, NA 0762 and NA 0763 all of which have NA bodies. There was clearly no absolute clear-cut link between 2 breather engines and the NA/NB change-over.
IÆve ended up with the somewhat heretical view that, typical of the times, there may not have been a clean cut-off between NA and NB and that perhaps a few post NA 0783 chassis with double breather engines were indeed fitted with spare NA bodies, either to use these up or at a customerÆs request.
I have to admit that Mike Allison (who is far better informed "from the shop floor" than I am) doesnÆt agree.
All part of Triple-M charm.
Bob Clare
Registrar
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LewPalmer
USA
3209 Posts |
Posted - 25/06/2008 : 23:21:53
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Not exactly the same, but a similar situation we know happened with the end of the run of PA chasses. Some (14 if I recall correctly) were fitted with the PB kit. Since there probably were fewer N-types built and sold, it may have been that some intentional, but indiscriminate, changeovers happened. It happened all the time with lesser components. As stocks were depleted, the newer components were used. And, as the last of the earlier bodies were found, trickled in, or even repaired for reuse, they were placed on the newer chassis.
Plausible?
Lew Palmer
Registrar, NAMMMR |
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David Allison
United Kingdom
665 Posts |
Posted - 26/06/2008 : 08:57:12
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Lew
I think you have it dead right.
The cars were nothing like as important as they are now - they were cash generation - if they could sell an NA with a J2 engine - they would I am sure have tried!
By 1935-36 the factory was up against it - Kimber was unpopular with his other colleagues in senior management at Nuffield - the racing shop and development departments had been closed down.
The sales of sports car were on the wane and they had not yet attracted a wide overseas market for the product.
In fact the UK remains the largest market for open top cars (unfailing optimism in the face of the UK summer season).
The NA had problems on warranty from day 1.
The rear hinged doors comming open being the most major complaint.
The NB body was an improvement and I think a couple of NA's were almost certainly re-bodied to cure the problem.
That a couple of NB's ended up with the older body later on in the production run is also plausible (the bodies removed and repaired from the NA warranty work placed on later NB's without a suitable body).
I am fairly sure that the problems with the NA doors was probably a nail in the samll 6 cylinder MG coffin and a move toward concentrating on the simpler, cheaper and therefore easier to sell Midgets became more attractive.
The TA was to all intents a slightly larger P type with a bigger engine - in other words an N type Midget.
The T type was MG Car Company's saviour - enough US servicemen fell in love with them that a demand grew in the USA and the rest is history!
I doubt if the MMM car with its more complicated engine mechanicals and requirement for trained mechanics, would have been so successful in early post war America as their later (and with respect more agricultural) simpler T type younger sisters.
We are much more precious than the engineers of the day!
Jacko once told Dad that the best car MG made is "the car we make tomorrow" and I think we forget this now.
Regards David |
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Bill Abbott
United Kingdom
61 Posts |
Posted - 26/06/2008 : 13:54:22
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| Just to add my 2 pennies worth. No one in the factory ever imagined half a century later there would be a forum discussing what bodies went with what chassis no. As you say, they were in the business of selling cars. If that meant they could do a deal on the phased out NA body they would, likewise if someone was willing to pay a premium for the latest 1936 model I'm sure it was arranged. NA/NB was as I understand it,an internal designation,so to the potential buyer it was an N magnette. My N type (0776) left the factory in the latest NB guise in September 1935 via Morgan Marchall of Imperial motors for a friend of his Cecil Evans (Receipt to Imperial motors dated 13th Sept).When I spoke to Cecil's wife some years back, she said that Morgan collected the car himself to save the factory delivery charge which was something like ú15.00. The body frames do show evidence of having the recesses for front opening doors but were skinned as rear openers, as Mike says they used up and modified what they had on the shelf.My guess is, that the factory probably started to produce its new models in September, ready for delivery after the October Motor Show,but were available to some dealers before this date at a premium. |
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Terry Andrews
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - 26/06/2008 : 16:06:22
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To add to this thread.
Some of you may know I am restoring an N 2 seater and have been researching these models for some time. The original owner of my car also ordered every extra available. He was unhappy that when it was delivered with none of these were fitted. The car went back to the factory to have this done including the fitting of a DWS jacking system. He complained about the fitting of this system under guarantee but on collecting his car he was unhappy to see at the factory that the NB type with the door reversed. After a lot of correspondence (within the chassis files) the factory reversed the doors. Other things were also changed. But the honeycomb grill was retained. I am endeavouring to complete the car to how I understand the original owner had it. I have in effect a NABà..so please do not tell me I have restored it wrong. I have found a least 8 instances where this has happened to both 2 and 4 seaters.
The N type bodies (2 and 4 seaters) seem to fall into the following categories
A Early NA
B Later NAs / NBs
C Very similar to ôBö but with minor changes dashboard mountings and extra depth to the luggage area. (Late NB 2 seaters)
The early bodies (A) appear to be 2 inches narrower at the front at the bottom of the body were the wing meets the body near the running board joint. The later bodies appear to be 2 inches wider at the bottom front and ? wider across the scuttle top, across the face of the dashboard. This change appears to have taken place somewhere between N0373 and N0442. My car N0625 corresponds with the data I have after N0442. NBÆs can either be type B or C. The later bodies show signs of the earlier designs because there is a gap at the very bottom of the tool box which seems to have been made to the earlier width.
On 2 seaters there were additional strengthen brackets during production. I have examples of every bracket. However, of the many cars I have seen not every car has every bracket. It would appear that as my car went back to the factory for changes my car had every bracket fitted but I have seen later cars with one or more of the bracket designs missing. These are usually the B post one or the L bracket on the inner wheel arch.
These bodies were being modified all during its production life. There does not seem to be a ôcleanö cut off point as with the PA/PB. This certainly seems to be the case with the less popular N 2 seater compared to the 4 seater.
Finally, The PA ratio gearbox continued well into the production run of the NB so the changes associated with the PB cannot be directly attributed to the NB.
I am still learning, so any addition information anyone has on N types I would be glad to complete the 4 LÆs (Look, Learn, Listen and Liaise) àà. Terry
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