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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
 Posted - 19/01/2006 : 14:29:48
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PA 0603 has just come back from its first run of 2006, following some attention to its waterworks and the installation of a water-pump, as fitted when new .
Asked for oil information, ( all brands changed since my last MMM!) a very expert professional said 'Use only Valvoline 20/50'. Another two, said to be equally expert, said 'Use straight 50 in summer' and ' 20/50 if you have a newish engine, straight oil otherwise'.
The engine has 30 to 75 psi on 40grade, depending on revs and temperature, and runs well, but is not a recent rebuild.
Comments and advice appreciated. |
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rbm
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 20/01/2006 : 09:02:01
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ok ok I'll hold up my hand.......I use a fully synthetic sae 0-30 (mobil 1) in the M type and have had no major problems (due to oil anyway)The car is sprinted and hill climbed in anger so it goes from barly warmed up to full load/over reving etc. in a few seconds and needs an oil that will cope with this.
The 1st race engine died at Elvington after holing the sump and loosing all the oil - the engine had got down to zero oil pressure, but in the heat of the moment the 1st I noticed of it was the power dropped off and then a major miss and chuffing back from the engine as the rockers nipped up and snapped the rocker shaft  . When I pull the engine down the shell had only just started to pick up the bores were still like new, also there was very little sludge in the crank. If it wasn't for finding a crack across the top of the block between 2 studs I would have been happy to chuck in a set of shells in and gone straight back to it.
So I'm with Paul on this one, if you have a rebuilt engine and modern type filter I would be happy using a modern oil - because lets face it they are far better - unless of course you like pulling you engine down for a decoke every 6 months or so 
Richard |
Edited by - rbm on 20/01/2006 09:06:50 |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1627 Posts |
Posted - 20/01/2006 : 10:23:40
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Bob I would be a little cautious about some of the advice you are getting. You might get away with using a 20/50 oil with a new engine on shell bearings but it is very questionable whether some of the modern ultra low viscosity oils are suitable for our engines. However you look at it pre war MG engines do not have the same clearances, tolerances, oil seals, valve gear and filtration systems as modern car engines. I cant see the point in taking a risk in using these oils when more suitable oils are readily available and have been proved to be suitable for our engines over a very long period.
Personally I use a straight 40 oil from Morris of Shrewsbury all year round and have done so since I started running pre war MG cars in 62/63. My engines remain very clean. I change oil every year. I certainly do not have to pull my engine down for a decoke every 6 months. In fact when I pulled the J3 engine in the late 90,s after nearly 20 years of regular hard use it was remarkably clean and there was very little bearing wear. This car and my current J2 both run on white metal bearings and both have a P type oil filter on the side of the block same as a J4.
You will kick yourself if you put in a modern low viscosity oil and end up with an engine rebuild.
Terry Holden |
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rbm
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 20/01/2006 : 12:49:03
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as Paul states, this is going to be a hot one.......
Most engine wear occours when the engine is started from cold, this happens for 2 main reasons, there is no oil pressure and the oil is not doing its job becuase it is cold. This is why modern oils have been invented. Most modern multigrade oils have cleaning agents in them to alow for longer sevice intervals (we are now on 20,000+ between oil changes on some models at work)these don't work well in older engines you get higher oil consumption as the rubbish that seals the gaps is cleaned away but "classic" multigrades are availible without detergents giving the best of both worlds.
But would I advise you to use a modern multigrade - well NO, the choice has to be down to the user - listen to what is available and what are the pros and cons - speak to the oil companies like Morris and see what they say, if you are going to uses a monograde well be gental 'till shes warmed up don't ever thrash her down the motorway and follow the period advice on servicing and don't ever try and user her like a modern becuase you will just wear her out - and what ever you do don't try to copy the way I use my M ......I have enough opposition with the austin sevens
Richard |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3228 Posts |
Posted - 21/01/2006 : 20:42:16
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My blown NB has been out on the roads today the objective being to warm up the engine and change the oil!
I have always used oils such as Castrol GTX and Duckhams Q20 50 without any problems. Today I filled the sump with Valvoline 20 50 racing oil, this was on the recommendation of an expert - I wonder if it is the same source as yours Bob! The Valvoline is expensive but it does appear to have a thicker consistancy than the Duckhams previously used.
My car is fitted with a modern oil filter which works fine except when the car has stood for a few weeks. On first starting the oil pressure does come up fairly quickly - I usually turn the engine over with the starter motor first - but the oil takes what seems an age to get round the big ends etc. It will be interesting to see if there is any change using the Valvoline.
The engine has recently been rebuilt, the oil pressure is good and when regularly used the oil quickly circulates round the engine. |
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LewPalmer
USA
3210 Posts |
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bahnisch
Australia
674 Posts |
Posted - 23/01/2006 : 10:09:30
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| The only time that I would not use modern multigrade oil in an older engine is when it has been using straight mineral oil for a considerable period of time. The reason simply is that modern oils (which are very detergent) may dislodge a lot of sludgy deposits which would then circulate around the engine. Modern oils are infinitely superior to the old products and the reason that I use them (even in my 1912 Rover) is that they are far more effective in counteracting the harmful contaminants that build up and can be quite deleterious when cars get infrequent use. It has been estimated that 80-90% of engine "wear" is due not to friction but to the corrosive effects of contaminants and modern oils are much better at counteracting these. I change the oil every two years irrespective of use (in our very temperate climate), but it probably should also be borne in mind that whatever we do we will never "wear out" our fully reconditioned and restored "toys"! |
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rbm
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 23/01/2006 : 11:27:35
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quote:
Originally posted by bahnisch
.......The reason simply is that modern oils (which are very detergent) may dislodge a lot of sludgy deposits which would then circulate around the engine.
many of the specialist oil suppliers/blenders such as millers supply multigarde oils without detergents.
Richard |
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MDP
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - 23/01/2006 : 14:47:04
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My Company is Valvolines biggest distributor in the UK & we do sell a LOT of their RACE 20/50 to Vintage/Classic car owners. It is the best spec 20/50 available.
I'm not sure if I'm supposed to mention this (advertising?) but I can arrange special rates for MMM owners, as I do for some VSCC racers I'm friendly with.
By the way, I use castor oil in my three MMM's! Only because that's what they were using when I bought them.
Regards
Mark |
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Christian Cottes
France
114 Posts |
Posted - 24/01/2006 : 21:22:07
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The arguments about engine oil remind me an old story from the South West of France.
A well known Amilcar owner, unfortunaletly now deceased, used to tell this story of his youth, sometime in the 50Æs :
The mailman in the village owned a beautiful CGSS. The young man asked several times would he sell the car, and the answer was no. Eventually the mailman became the owner of a Simca Aronde. The young man thought the time had come for the car to be sold, so he asked again. Again, the answer was no.
After a few years using both the Aronde and the Amilcar, the mailman unexpectedly came one day to see the young man and said : now I want to sell the car. A deal was quickly done and the young man was soon driving the delightfull and very fast little car.
When the car was due for an oil change, the young man went back to see the mailman and ask what kind of lubricant he should use for such a high performance car. ôNothing but the bestö was the answer. Then he went on : ôWhen I drain the oil from the Aronde, I keep it for the Amilcar ! ö
I saw the car about 4 years ago, as swift and quick as ever.
There is no moral to this story, of course, but what if the worst oil of nowadays was much better than yesterdayÆs premium ?
Christian Cottes |
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Bob Stringfield
United Kingdom
854 Posts |
Posted - 25/01/2006 : 09:15:44
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Thanks, Christian. If you can find an Amilcar CGSS in the same condition to swap for my PA, I should then be a happy man with no doubts about which oil to use!
My French vehicles, a Derny and a Velo-Velocar, are not at all critical about oil and nor was my Traction 11B. See you at Retromobile? |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1627 Posts |
Posted - 25/01/2006 : 13:35:15
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Well Bob you have heard all the views and if that Amilcar does not come your way you will now have to decide on which oil to use !
Here are a couple of quotes to help you decide :-
1) "Where engine design and tolerances prohibit the use of modern multigrade high additive level oils low detergent monograde or minimum 20-50 grade oils are recomended. Modern dispersant additives keep combustion chamber contamination suspended in the lubricant allowing full flow cartridge filters to remove it. Early gauze or strainer filters are not efficient enough to remove this suspended material. Low dispersant oils allow the suspended matter to drop harmlessly into the sump".
2) "Modern low viscosity oils are designed for modern engines. A classic car engine has opposite characteristics with cork/graphite/rope seals,low pressure cog drive oil pumps. wider oil ways with greater dependence on splash and cling lubrication, lower revving with lesser machine tolerances. Such a widely different specification demands a totally different lubricant ".
There may well be holes in the above. The oil companies wrote this not me but the more you think about the issue the more you realise that the choice of oil is very dependant on what filtration system you have. If you have converted to a modern full flow system and have a newly rebuilt engine then you can use a 20-50 or even possible a 10-40/50 multigrade with detergents but remember the latter will be thinner and leaks more likely to occur.In this situation the Valvoline looks a good bet . Their technical people tell me it is closer to a 20-60 which accounts for the thicker constituency you noticed George.
If,as most Triple M owners, you are still relying on the original oil filtration system and probably have an engine built some years ago then I still think you are best sticking with a low dispersant/detergent monograde ( 30 or 40) or the equivalent 20-50 multigrade oil. Both Morris and Castrol supply these.
None of the oil company technical people I have spoken to were prepared to sanction the use of a modern low viscosity synthetic oil in a vintage engine even if shell bearings are being used.
Two final points. Firstly for the cost involved I would still suggest changing oil every year or two years dependant on use. Secondly I have just learnt that the P/N type oil filter can be converted internally to take a modern cartridge type filter. I am interested in this. Can anyone point me in the direction of a supplier ? Do S and V do this ?
Terry Holden |
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Peter Green
United Kingdom
1682 Posts |
Posted - 25/01/2006 : 14:19:40
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Terry,
Converting an original P/N type filter to accept a modern filter element was a topic in May 2004. If you do a search for 'PA Oil filter conversion' and you will be able to read all about it.
Peter. |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1627 Posts |
Posted - 25/01/2006 : 16:26:16
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Paul I am obviously aware of what you say. I did make the point that these quotes were not mine. That particular one came from a well known oil companies web site. It does however underline the point that our engines are not the same as a modern engine. With regard to viscosity that comment came from the guy at Valvoline. I think from memory his words were "our VR1 20-50 racing oil has a high spec and a thicker viscosity than many other 20-50 oils in fact at the top end it is closer to 60 than 50" The whole point here is that people need to make up their own minds and filtration is a key issue.
Terry Holden |
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Rodney Collins
United Kingdom
424 Posts |
Posted - 25/01/2006 : 17:23:56
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I have in my PB engined PA castrol classic 20/50 which I was advised to put in by Tom Dark who buil the engine, he said its a good general oil. Bearing in mind that my engine is all but new from top to bottom ( original exhaust manifold and starter motor!) and has a blower and modern filtration, it seems from all i have read I could put just about any oil in. I must agree that old car don't necessarly mean old type oil. I notice someone mentioned caster oil (Castrol R i belive) this being an old racing oil. It's still used widely today, at VSCC meeting the evoctive smell of burning caster oil is everywhere. I fancy using it just for the smell.I use to know some Bikers that run old Nortons etc, they used to put a cupfull of castrol R in their petrol tanks just for the smell.
Rodney |
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John Reid
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 25/01/2006 : 18:50:06
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Terry,
You were asking about converting the original oil filter to take a modern paper element. John Harris covers this on page 14/15 of the 1991 Yearbook. It is fairly straightforward, involving the machining of a spacer.
I have done this and I use a Mercedes 190E oil filter element, FRAM part number CH4797.
John R |
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