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Ten-Six
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
 Posted - 18/02/2023 : 19:55:32
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Does anybody know the present whereabouts of this car which is currently still on DVLA records but showing as not currently taxed for road use.
Reason for asking is that in Portsmouth recently, I was shown an oil painting of this car when new taking part in the 1934 Ulster Motor Rally.
How the picture came to be in Hampshire I do not know. The car was registered in Tyrone and the picture itself was framed by a firm in Northern Ireland. The car is shown at Bangor which was the start and finish point that year. Driver was William Anderson and the painting was done (later I would think) by Stephen Anderson.
Also, does anybody know the actual dates of the 1934 event as I cannot find anything about it, despite it apparently being quite an important rally.
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6001 Posts |
Posted - 18/02/2023 : 20:39:01
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W. Anderson (presumably William) from Dungannon, County Tyrone, was the first owner of this car. The Ulster Rally was held on 27 and 28 August that year. There were 90 entries, mostly starting in either Dublin or Belfast, but some did start from London. The car is J4163
It was seemingly won by a Mr W. Jones from Ballymena.
Simon J
J3437 |
Edited by - Simon Johnston on 18/02/2023 20:40:06 |
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Ten-Six
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
Posted - 19/02/2023 : 08:47:10
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Thank you Simon, that is most helpful. I will see if I can find further references to the Rally now that I have the dates.
It would be nice to think that perhaps the car has survived in some form rather than just the registration number still being on DVLA database.
Family and picture clearly originated from Northern Ireland...how it got to Southern England is probably a story in itself !
Thanks again for your help. |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6001 Posts |
Posted - 19/02/2023 : 09:25:41
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Interestingly, this car has a Triple-M Register number - 1316 - with a last recorded change of ownership in December 1986. Perhaps our Registrar, John Emmett, can add something?
Simon J
J3437 |
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sam christie
United Kingdom
3058 Posts |
Posted - 19/02/2023 : 10:14:10
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Copied from an old photograph and relatively recent ?
Sam |
Edited by - sam christie on 19/02/2023 10:16:36 |
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Ten-Six
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
Posted - 19/02/2023 : 10:53:31
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Almost certainly copied from an old photograph...and possibly by a member of the Anderson family...Stephen Anderson.
Unfortunately no painting date but it was certainly framed by a company in Ballynahinch, County Down. STD phone code on label so not THAT old I would think. |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6001 Posts |
Posted - 19/02/2023 : 19:08:32
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I’m pursuing this here in Norn Iron but interestingly, while this car had its guarantee plate issued on 11 January 1934 the car before it, J4162, had its guarantee plate issued on 13 October 1933, and the car after it, J4164, had its g'tee plate issued on 14 October 1933. How strange.
Simon J
J3437 |
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JohnE
United Kingdom
367 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2023 : 10:02:26
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Alas I can't add anything Simon. The December 1986 date is usually a default, meaning not heard of since that date.
JohnE |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6001 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2023 : 10:11:14
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Thanks, John. I’m on the case with the folks here in Norn Iron who framed the picture, seemingly within the last ten years or so. That might lead us to the family of the original owner. But strange that it’s on the DVLA website but little or no information about it.
Any thoughts on how it ended up going down the production line three months after the chassis numbers immediately before and after?
Simon J
J3437 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6001 Posts |
Posted - 20/02/2023 : 17:45:13
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This turns out to be an interesting car. It would appear that, despite its chassis number being in a batch that received their guarantee plates in October 1933, the guarantee plate wasn’t actually issued until 11 January 1934 making it, apparently, the last J2 down the line. It would seem that it might have been removed from the production line in October 1933 as the cars immediately before and after it have consecutive engine numbers but its engine seems to date from February 1933 while its body is one of the last dozen produced. Make of that what you will!
Simon J
J3437 |
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Simon Johnston
United Kingdom
6001 Posts |
Posted - 22/02/2023 : 17:11:01
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Just to update this, the engine in J4163/JI 5870 - 1623 AJ - was originally fitted to J2861 which dates from February 1933. But in July 1933 the factory replaced this engine with 2406 AJ and a new guarantee plate was issued. The reason for doing this isn’t known as yet, but the engine was presumably put to one side until January 1934 when it was installed in J4163 and the matching guarantee plate, the last J2 one, was issued on 11 January 1934.
Mind you, we still don’t know what became of the car!
Simon J
J3437 |
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Geoff.Broadhead
New Zealand
27 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2023 : 08:36:32
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There is a strong possibility J4163 survives in NZ, but is now identified by its owner as J 4371. Copy of correspondence 3/4 years ago about this car follows. I have heard no more since then until reading this Forum item. Unfortunately the owner of what he claims to be 'J4371' is not very communicative!!
This Chassis number of J4371 is a bit of a mystery. The correspondence with Triple-M Registrar in UK follows. The owner of 'J4371' is convinced that his car is correctly identified.
J4371 is fitted with a Morris minor block – 35591C but there is evidence from old service records that this block was actually installed in J 4163, not J4371
The question of J 4163 whereabouts arose in 2019 because of a family member (Gerald) of a previous owner of J4163 was trying to trace the car's whereabouts and whether it still existed. He understood the car was in NZ.
Copy of correspondence in September, 2019 with Gerald and John Emmett, J Types Registrar in UK follows:
I replied 23rd July, 2019:
"Hello Gerald,
I was about to email you and tell you that I have been unable to trace the whereabouts in NZ of the J2 you used to own. I have no record of J 4163, could find no reference to it in the Aussie Pre-War Register and it is not amongst the Triple-M cars exported from NZ that I'm aware of in the last decade.
So, I was about to email you and say no trace when, as a last resort I checked the service records of a recently retired MG engineer, and I saw a reference to J 4163, and who owned it. I had the contact details of the owner but he has his J2 listed in the NZ Triple M Register as J 4371. I contacted him this morning to check whether I had mistakenly used his registration number instead of his chassis number. He replied I had not got my facts wrong, and that his car is J 4371......
My understanding is that the J 4371 has no chassis number stamped on it. Perhaps a replacement chassis? I know from some pictures sent to me ten years ago that the bonnet hinge shows J 4371. A photo showing the brass plate also says J 4371, (but I suspect it maybe an after-market plate stamped with whatever was fitted to the car at the time of a rebuild) Who knows where the bonnet assembly came from? We rely on chassis numbers, not bonnet numbers.
It seems that the correct number for this car (J 4371) is J 4163. I have referred the issue to the Triple-M folk in UK as they have quite a bit of information about these chassis’ numbers".
From Sue Martin, Secretary, MGCC (Auckland Centre), later the same day:
“Hi Geoff,
I have Chassis number J 4163 with engine number as 35591C (this confirms my suspicion)
and I have Chassis number J 4371 with engine number as 2947AJ (this confirms Simon's information above)
Your records will be more up-to-date than that which I recorded some years back when at then UK Chairman Mike Hawke's request I compiled the Triple-M Register in NZ when I spent some time with Mike when he provided me with UK records.
I'd be most interested to know the outcome of your inquiry to UK.
Thanks for copying me as it is all very interesting”
On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 1:48 AM John Emmett <john.r.emmett@btinternet.com> wrote:
"Hi Geoff,
About the only thing that I can help with here is that J4163 had engine 1623AJ fitted at the factory, and J4371 had, yes, 2947AJ. Any photos of either car would be most welcome".
From John Emmett, 27th July, 2019:
"This photo from maybe the 70’s is all we have on J4163, whereas the bonnet and engine tie up for J4371. I’m not sure what to make of the guarantee plate, not an obvious replica, but not a recognised format either.
I guess on balance all new can do is record the details, in the hope that continuity will be eventually established"!
I strongly suspect that what is recorded as J 4371 is, in fact, J 4163.
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1934 MG J2. JI 5870
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