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Allan Bentley
United Kingdom
253 Posts |
 Posted - 31/12/2012 : 10:11:02
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Was this the R Type which was at Chelsea in the late 1940s, and rebuilt to race by Bill Moss in the early 1950s?
I was told yesterday by my brother in law, Bruce Moss, that it had been in Ireland before Bill purchased it. Bruce has photos and 8mm cine film of the car in action in the early 50s. We just need to find the film amongst many others of Bill racing his ERA Remus. This may be a 'Loft challenge'!
Bruce has other photos of MGs at events in that period.
Allan |
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Allan Bentley
United Kingdom
253 Posts |
Posted - 31/12/2012 : 13:33:41
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Hello forum, hello Jay.
The RA was not 0259 but RA0251.
Jay Hall very kindly called me within minutes of posting and provided me with the complete history of the car dates owners etc. Now we have to find the films, which were taken by Bill's father Frank Moss in about 1960. Jay saw the RA when stored at Frank Lockart's garage in Bedfordshire in 1960 it was painted light blue like all of Bill's cars.
What a great information service we have through this forum. Very many thanks again, Jay.
Allan |
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George Eagle
United Kingdom
3228 Posts |
Posted - 31/12/2012 : 17:52:55
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Hi Allan
A very intersting topic, would Bruce be willing to share the photos with the Register?
Jay Hall has an amazing record of the histories of many of the Triple-M competition cars - how kind of him to supply you with the complete history of RA0251.
I have many fond memories of Bill racing his famous ex-Bira ERA Remus.
George
L2023 and NA0960 |
Edited by - George Eagle on 31/12/2012 17:53:42 |
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McEvoy
United Kingdom
252 Posts |
Posted - 31/12/2012 : 18:42:48
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Hello Allan,
Nice to hear from someone with R type interest. If you have a copy of the 2010 Year Book you will see a picture and some notes concerning 0251 in my article "Finding and Buying R Types"
It was in the late 1950's thatI first saw this car at the Chelsea College of Automobile & Aero Engineering, it having been given to the College by the widow of the late Principal. The two lecturers in charge of it were using the chassis and running gear as a demonstration unit and allowing their students to dismantle and rebuild the suspension. Killick the late Principal had run the car at Redhill aerodrome and the intention was to rebuild it with a Riley 9 engine. As you say it was sold to Bill Moss for the princely sum, I was told, of £40.
I then became re-acquainted with the car when Charles Duerden purchased it and much to my surprise he only lived a few miles from me where I had 0257 & 0258.
Unfortunately Charles never got around to rebuilding the car, I sold him some surplus parts from 0257. His R did have one interesting accessory and that was a sprint fuel tank although I never saw it fitted.
It would be great if you could find some photos of it and any history prior to Killick owning it.
Bob Milton |
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Allan Bentley
United Kingdom
253 Posts |
Posted - 31/12/2012 : 19:15:22
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Hello Bob.
I have been in contact this afternoon with Bruce Moss with all the details of the history of RA0251, and that it is now in Germany fully restored. He has not yet found the cine films but in a trawl through photo albums has found some R Type photos from the 1950s. You may well know which RA they are.
I hope to borrow the originals and get Robin H to wave his magic digtal wand over them as some are far from clear.
Here is a one for the forum. I will send you the file as received from Bruce as he has titled each photo with event date and drivers name, which may help you.
Bruces file is not all R types but there is a Q and also a single seater MG which looks to have a manual Wolsley gearbox. Also Hillwoods MG special which could be Q or P Type as the engine is not covered.
Allan
covered.
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Chris Bucknell
Australia
107 Posts |
Posted - 31/12/2012 : 20:34:02
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Yep confirm definitely not RA0259. FYI Karl Weissman is the owner of RA0251 and no doubt would be most interested in anything found. I don't believe Karl has completed the restoration yet but he must be very close.
FYI there are few clips of RA0259 from the early years including 1935, 1949 and 1950. |
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McEvoy
United Kingdom
252 Posts |
Posted - 31/12/2012 : 21:27:53
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Alan, Many thanks for the posting with the interesting photos, I certainly will look out for more of them and hopefully with others be able to identify some of the Rs.
As Chris said 0251 together with 0254 & 0260 are in the safe hands of Karl Wiessmann in Germany and again as Chris mentioned 0251 restoration has not as yet been completed but seeing some of the work Karl has undertaken so farI know that all 3 cars will be restored to a high standard.
Best wishes for 2013
Bob Milton |
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Ray Masters
United Kingdom
563 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2013 : 16:27:37
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| Alan. The third photo (car no. 94 ) is the MBMG of Geoff Monk & his pal Alan Bell. This car had a Q-type engine , from 0256 if my memory serve me correctly. At the time it had a C-type gearbox fitted centrally hence the long, angled gear change. This was later replaced by a pre-selector box & that is how I had my first drive in it in 1964. I would love to know where the photo was taken . Ray. |
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Allan Bentley
United Kingdom
253 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2013 : 17:09:36
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Ray.
Very interesting as the rear of the body triggered 'Monk' in my mind from the 1960s. Certainly this photo if taken by Bruce will be early- mid 50s. He will remember where but has not captioned this photo. He asks me if it is an R type as that was what I asked him to look for.
I will ask him tonight and let you know.
Allan |
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Ray Masters
United Kingdom
563 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2013 : 20:15:42
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Allan. Many thanks. Any info would be interesting. I even recognise Geoff's trailer in the background & you can just see the rear light etc of the Mark III Standard Vanguard he had at the time KJA 65 . Looking at the concrete hard-standing I would guess it is a military/airforce site. Looking forward to hearing more.
The other two photos are also excellent & show how things were in the 50's & earlier. Unmown paddocks & strips of concrete !. Ray |
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McEvoy
United Kingdom
252 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2013 : 13:04:37
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Further information from Allan reminds me how dangerous it is in jumping to conclusions regarding the identification of our cars in photos.
It transpires that the picture of the R Type infront of the Moss truck is not 0251 as Moss took the picture at Gosport in 1953 well before he purchased 0251 from the Chelsea College.
So back to the drawing board or loft in my case and I now believe the R to be 0260 when owned by John Coundley. I corresponded with John who if memory serves me right was an estate agent in Ringwood, not that far from Gosport. Coundly also raced the car at the old Ibsley airfield circuit, again in that part of the world in the '50s.
It was in 1953 that Coundley sold the car to John Fisher in Portsmouth who entered it at the 1955 Gosport speed trials. The two identifying features of the Coundley car are the 16" rears and two mirrors. If I am correct then this particular car has a very well documented history passing through many famous motoring personality's hands ending up today in the same stable as 0251.
Bob |
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McEvoy
United Kingdom
252 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2013 : 12:08:05
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Allan,
I have now found some additional information from Jay hall regarding the car in your post bearing the competion number 67.
It is a J1 special owned by Hillward and campaigned in the '50s.
So nothing new in converting a triple-M road car into a competition special. Interesting project for someone to identify and record these specials of which I guess there are or were many.
Best wishes
Bob |
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tholden
United Kingdom
1627 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2013 : 12:22:49
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Bob the Hillwood Special chassis number J0583 ( J1 ) is documented in Mike Hawkes book 75 Years of the J2 MG. A neighbour of mine told me there was a garage in Gosport in the 50's where several racing MG's were maintained including his fathers Q type. Geoff Coles also kept a car there when he lived in this area I gather.
TH |
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John Reid
United Kingdom
704 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2013 : 20:28:36
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The Hillwood Special is well documented in a comprehensive article by Colin Butchers.
See Yearbook 2006.
John R |
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Chris Bucknell
Australia
107 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2013 : 20:58:04
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Hi Bob,
Just a quick addition to your comment re mirrors and wheels. For the record RA0259 was fitted with two mirrors and 16 inch wheels by Geoff McCrae prior to 1950, but I am not suggesting this car (No. 109) is RA0259. It is defintiely not.
Chris |
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Allan Bentley
United Kingdom
253 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 09:19:16
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Many thanks for all of your contributions including of course Jay Hall who called me twice with a huge amount of information. I did miss quote Jay in my second post, my telephone and note writing skills failed me. Jay tells me that he had photos of 0251 in Lockarts garage when he was researching K3s, but did not actually see the car until it was on a trailer outside his house on its way to Germany. He saw the blue paint on the sprint tank and thought this may have been ex Evans. I think he said it was Green in 1959.
I think we now know the heritage of all the cars in the photos I posted. I will have these cleaned up by Robin H to go into the MMM photo archives if he wishes.
To Chris Bucknell many thanks for correcting me. I had in my mind that 0259 had been in Ireland as a kit of parts and Bruce had talked about Ireland so I had assumed that his brother had purchased 0251 post Chelsea from there. I now have all the dates and owners and colours from Jay which I will send to Bruce Moss, as I would like to search further through his huge collection of photos.
I hope to find some more MG photos to test the 'Forum Masterminds'.
I will post 2 more photos of the Hillwood J1 special and 2 of a Q type single seater at Prescott in the 1950s.
Allan
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